Christendom inconsistent beliefs #3: Christ never died?

[Eloi]

Oddly enough, this is the belief of all of Christendom.

However, Jesus said just the opposite:

Rev. 1:17 When I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.
... 2:8 “And to the angel of the congregation in Smyrʹna write: These are the things that he says, ‘the First and the Last,’ who became dead and came to life again ..."

If Jesus says that he "became dead" and "came to life again", why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom say that he never died, and they say even that he "resurrected himself"? Isn't that a clear denial of Jesus' statements in this regard?

[William]

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #40]

Why would an unbelieve focus on the important stuff pertaining to a religion that he doesn't believe in?

While I don't believe in religious Christianity it is because in reading what biblical Jesus hade to say he was obviously pointing folk away from religion and into the Mystic.

Since I am a student of Mysticism, I recognize that aspect of the storyline as presented through the Christian religion, and see that it is not regarded as 'important stuff' to Christians, and wonder aloud while debating with said religious Christians.

If you would rather not talk about it...then you won't.

[onewithhim]

So it could be argued that Jesus never died - only his body died. Later to be resurrected when Jesus returned to said body.

Depends on how you look at it

A part of him did die (his body), but scripture teaches us that the body isn't the end all-be all of a person.

It IS to most people. Like it says in I Corinthians 15, there are physical bodies and there are spirit bodies. Not everyone will have spirit bodies, just those of the 144,000 who go to heaven to reign with Christ OVER the billions on earth who will retain their physical bodies.

"The meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace....The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it." (Psalm 37:11,29)

"The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, and with the young goat the leopard will lie down, and the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; and a little boy will lead them. The cow and the bear will feed together, and their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull. The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra, and a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake. They will not cause any harm or any ruin in all my holy mountain, because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9)

No spirit bodies there, right? People will be physical, just as the animals are, in the new world, and it will be like that forever.


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[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #34]

So you are saying that Jesus was a 'spirit body' and then he [somehow] left his spirit body and took on a material body which died [and so Jesus died because he was that material body] and then he [the material body] was resurrected but it was no longer the material body but the spirit body, even that you also say "He did not take back his physical body"

The idea as you are currently explaining it, necessitates Jesus being something other than either a 'spirit body or a physical body'.

You also claimed that a 'spirit body' could not inhabit a material body - when you wrote "People don't have spirit bodies living inside them. They are EITHER spirit persons OR physical persons."

This appears to be in conflict with Christians stories regarding material forms being possessed by 'unclean spirits'.

Do you have any explanation for this contradiction?

There is no contradiction. The unclean spirits, or, demons, are beings with spirit bodies. They live in the spirit world. They are able to enter persons that are alive physically, if those persons allow it. Physical people don't have a mini-me spirit living inside them that departs when they die, carrying on their thoughts and plans. Their "spirit" is merely the life-force from God that keeps them breathing. So there is no contradiction between spirits that can enter a body, and physical people with no spirit inside them (that might be their own "mini-me" spirit).

Physical person + no conscious spirit
Demons that can enter a person

Two different scenarios

[onewithhim]

Like how two people calling themselves Christians believe opposite things yet each one claims to be speaking the truth?

Do you know anyone of whom you agree with 100% on everything?

I think it fair to say that scripture teaches both beliefs.

When I die, the "I" (physical) part of me dies...while the "I" spiritual part of me remains living.

That part of the scripture is clear and leave it up to a unbeliever to sensationalize and make a big deal out of nothing, actually.

How is that "clear?" I don't find it clear at all that a person has a spirit person (with their same thoughts) living inside them. Where do you see this?

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[William]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #43]

There is no contradiction. The unclean spirits, or, demons, are beings with spirit bodies. They live in the spirit world. They are able to enter persons that are alive physically, if those persons allow it.

Do you have anything in which to support this is the case?

Then we can better ascertain if there really is no contradiction.

Meantime, we still have the idea that;

BJ was a spirit body.
BJ then became a human body without the spirit body he was, entering into the human form and becoming 'human Jesus'
BJ did this for 30ish years and then BJ died.
BJ then transformed himself into a spirit body, even though BJ had died.

[We_Are_VENOM]

It IS to most people. Like it says in I Corinthians 15, there are physical bodies and there are spirit bodies. Not everyone will have spirit bodies, just those of the 144,000 who go to heaven to reign with Christ OVER the billions on earth who will retain their physical bodies.

Sorry, onewithhim...I can't rock with the whole 144k thing, for previously given reasons.

"The meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace....The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it." (Psalm 37:11,29)

Sure, the new earth (Rev 21).

"The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, and with the young goat the leopard will lie down, and the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; and a little boy will lead them. The cow and the bear will feed together, and their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull. The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra, and a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake. They will not cause any harm or any ruin in all my holy mountain, because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9)

No spirit bodies there, right? People will be physical, just as the animals are, in the new world, and it will be like that forever.
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That would be a great rebuttal to my point, OWH...if it weren't for the fact that Isaiah 11:6-9 is a prophecy of the thousand year reign of Christ, a time of which Satan will be imprisoned.

All of that eating going on in Isaiah 11:6-9 contradicts Rev 7:15-16

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

[We_Are_VENOM]

How is that "clear?" I don't find it clear at all that a person has a spirit person (with their same thoughts) living inside them. Where do you see this?
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Before I answer your question, can you clarify what you mean by "with their same thoughts living inside them".

[onewithhim]

It IS to most people. Like it says in I Corinthians 15, there are physical bodies and there are spirit bodies. Not everyone will have spirit bodies, just those of the 144,000 who go to heaven to reign with Christ OVER the billions on earth who will retain their physical bodies.

Sorry, onewithhim...I can't rock with the whole 144k thing, for previously given reasons.

"The meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace....The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it." (Psalm 37:11,29)

Sure, the new earth (Rev 21).

"The wolf will reside for a while with the lamb, and with the young goat the leopard will lie down, and the calf and the lion and the fattened animal will all be together; and a little boy will lead them. The cow and the bear will feed together, and their young will lie down together. The lion will eat straw like the bull. The nursing child will play over the lair of a cobra, and a weaned child will put his hand over the den of a poisonous snake. They will not cause any harm or any ruin in all my holy mountain, because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:6-9)

No spirit bodies there, right? People will be physical, just as the animals are, in the new world, and it will be like that forever.
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That would be a great rebuttal to my point, OWH...if it weren't for the fact that Isaiah 11:6-9 is a prophecy of the thousand year reign of Christ, a time of which Satan will be imprisoned.

All of that eating going on in Isaiah 11:6-9 contradicts Rev 7:15-16

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

If you can't rock with the 144,000 thing, then any further explanations from me will fall on deaf ears, if you will. Isaiah 11:6-9 does definitely speak of conditions during Jesus' Millennial Reign (and thereafter). Revelation 7 speaks of those anointed co-rulers with Christ as they live in heaven. There are two different scenarios....the earthly scenario and the heavenly one, with people of two different body types in their respective scenarios.

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[onewithhim]

How is that "clear?" I don't find it clear at all that a person has a spirit person (with their same thoughts) living inside them. Where do you see this?
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Before I answer your question, can you clarify what you mean by "with their same thoughts living inside them".

What is there inside a person according to your ideas? You say that a person is a spirit person that is inside a physical body, right? (It leaves the physical body at death and goes on living, consciously, somewhere else.) That is what I am trying to say. Where is this taught in Scripture?

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[We_Are_VENOM]

If you can't rock with the 144,000 thing, then any further explanations from me will fall on deaf ears, if you will.

Then what did you say? Because I can't hear you

Isaiah 11:6-9 does definitely speak of conditions during Jesus' Millennial Reign (and thereafter). Revelation 7 speaks of those anointed co-rulers with Christ as they live in heaven.

Rev 7 mentions nothing about any co-rulers of Christ in heaven, OWH.

*Sigh*

And we all know that JW's teach that only the 144k will reside in heaven, and now here you are stating that this 144k will reside heaven, and they will be joined by this great multitude of co-rulers.

The problem is, that isn't what the scripture says.

There are two different scenarios....the earthly scenario and the heavenly one, with people of two different body types in their respective scenarios.
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