What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

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William
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What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #1

Post by William »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:06 am
William wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 3:19 am [Replying to Tcg in post #760]
In any case it wasn't some rebellion against God as some theists may be likely to presume.
IF they call themselves "Christian" THEN it is safe to say that they will presume exactly that.

All of them or just Some?
Q: All of them or just Some?

This is a question which appears to have no answer which can be agreed to.

QFD: Does that make the question itself, rhetorical?

Rhetorical = Along the lines of - "a question asked in order to create a dramatic effect or to make a point rather than to get an answer."

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #61

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:35 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:39 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:00 pm
Grunt0311 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:00 pm You cannot steal what you own. Sentencing to death for breaking God’s law is not murder it is justice administered. God destroyed evil which isn’t the same as destroying because you hate God.
What are you talking about: "God destroyed evil" ? God creates evil. He even said so himself.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



.
You are grossly misrepresenting Jehovah. He "creates evil" only in the sense that when people turn against him (e.g., worship other gods) he leaves them to their own devices (as he warned them he would) and the results of that are that the people find themselves on hard times, which they brought on themselves. Jehovah letting them be is the way that evil is "created" for them.
Fine, but I'll need chapters and verses substantiating your claims. What ya got?


.
Start with Deuteronomy 28:1,2,14; 29:9; 30:15,16,19. As long as the people listened to Jehovah and honored him and did not worship pagan gods, they would be protected and given everything they could want. Only after they gave him the finger, so to speak, and went after other gods and turned the land and the nation into a corrupt mess, did Jehovah subtract his caring for the people---and this caused them, of course, to suffer. That is what "creating evil" means. Evil , in this sense = unpleasantness and hard times.

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #62

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 5:26 pm
Miles wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 1:35 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 7:39 pm
Miles wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 5:00 pm
Grunt0311 wrote: Fri Nov 26, 2021 4:00 pm You cannot steal what you own. Sentencing to death for breaking God’s law is not murder it is justice administered. God destroyed evil which isn’t the same as destroying because you hate God.
What are you talking about: "God destroyed evil" ? God creates evil. He even said so himself.

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.



.
You are grossly misrepresenting Jehovah. He "creates evil" only in the sense that when people turn against him (e.g., worship other gods) he leaves them to their own devices (as he warned them he would) and the results of that are that the people find themselves on hard times, which they brought on themselves. Jehovah letting them be is the way that evil is "created" for them.
Fine, but I'll need chapters and verses substantiating your claims. What ya got?


.
Start with Deuteronomy 28:1,2,14; 29:9; 30:15,16,19. As long as the people listened to Jehovah and honored him and did not worship pagan gods, they would be protected and given everything they could want. Only after they gave him the finger, so to speak, and went after other gods and turned the land and the nation into a corrupt mess, did Jehovah subtract his caring for the people---and this caused them, of course, to suffer.

Nice I guess, but not one thing backing up your claim that god "'creates evil' only in the sense that when people turn against him he leaves them to their own devices and the results of that are that the people find themselves on hard times, which they brought on themselves." In fact, in the three Bibles I consulted regarding the verses you suggested in Deuteronomy, not one mentions evil.

That is what "creating evil" means. Evil , in this sense = unpleasantness and hard times.
Then there must be chapter and verse saying as much. I await. . . . . I also await what "creating evil" means in the other senses you don't mention.



.

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #63

Post by William »

William wrote: Sat Nov 27, 2021 12:06 am [Replying to onewithhim in post #55]
You are grossly misrepresenting Jehovah. He "creates evil" only in the sense that when people turn against him (e.g., worship other gods) he leaves them to their own devices (as he warned them he would) and the results of that are that the people find themselves on hard times, which they brought on themselves. Jehovah letting them be is the way that evil is "created" for them.
I am not sure you are representing יהוה any better with your explanation because there are defined incidence where evil is created by יהוה - such as the curse placed upon Human Women in the Garden story, the flooding of the Earth in the Noah story, and the plagues of nature in the Freeing the slaves of Egypt story, just to name 3 incidents where יהוה creates evil, and which align perfectly enough with the claim "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Seems to me that the addition of another entity with almost the same powers but working in opposition, is an extra unnecessary layer, given the evidence. A misrepresentation in itself.
[Replying to Grunt0311 in post #57]
Eve represented women who received the curse. Eve disobeyed God creating the “evil” consequences” when God flooded the earth it was in response to people living “evil”.The plaques were in response to pharaoh not releasing the Hebrews as God commanded.Every incident you will find in scripture of what you call “evil” on God’s part is God responding to and judging mankind’s evil doings. There are consequences for sinning and disobeying God.
That is pretty much what I said. It is not referred to as "Evil" but as Evil. There is no need to sugar coat it unless [which happened with the advent of Christianity] the introduction of the addition of another entity with almost the same powers but working in opposition is brought into the storyline.

Thus Satan becomes the "scapegoat" for all those who cannot bear to say the god of the bible was actually capable of evil actions.

But in reality, it is the one god who does the evil and the good. Not two gods in opposition to one another. with one doing good and the other doing evil.

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #64

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Miles in post #62]
I am interested only in the "evil" that you say God has created. I have shown just HOW he has "created" evil, and I can't imagine why you can't understand what I am saying. He "created" hardship on people by withdrawing his support of them and his protection. That is how "evil" was created for them. Do you not say that this was warrented....a just response to their wrongdoing?

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #65

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #64]
I am interested only in the evil that you say God has created.
Actually it is the bible - the book which most christians claim is the word of the christian god - which tells us that god creates evil as well as good and everything else.

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #66

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:36 pm [Replying to Miles in post #62]
I am interested only in the "evil" that you say God has created.
( Just to keep things straight here, it isn't "created" as in the past tense, but create as in the present tense ("I . . . create evil"). God continues to create evil, even today. )

And if you're interested only in the "evil" that I say God has created, this is fine, but you still haven't addressed the other issue you brought up

"That is what "creating evil" means. Evil , in this sense = unpleasantness and hard times."

and I asked you about

"Then there must be chapter and verse saying as much: That the evil in "creating evil" means unpleasantness and hard times. I also await what "creating evil" means in the other senses you don't mention."

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #67

Post by onewithhim »

Miles wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:37 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:36 pm [Replying to Miles in post #62]
I am interested only in the "evil" that you say God has created.
( Just to keep things straight here, it isn't "created" as in the past tense, but create as in the present tense ("I . . . create evil"). God continues to create evil, even today. )

And if you're interested only in the "evil" that I say God has created, this is fine, but you still haven't addressed the other issue you brought up

"That is what "creating evil" means. Evil , in this sense = unpleasantness and hard times."

and I asked you about

"Then there must be chapter and verse saying as much: That the evil in "creating evil" means unpleasantness and hard times. I also await what "creating evil" means in the other senses you don't mention."

.
I have explained over and again what God "creating evil" means. I can't put it in any other way to make you understand what I am saying. The nation agrees to do all that Jehovah tells them to do, and they promise not to worship other gods. They have peace and prosperity because Jehovah loves them and is pleased that they are listening to him and doing what he says to benefit themselves. As time goes on, they fall into gross misconduct---worshiping pagan gods and brutality to their own Israelite neighbors. They have gone back on their promise to God and are doing things as bad if not worse than the surrounding pagan nations. Jehovah told them previously that if they did such things he would cause them to suffer hardships because he would take away his protection and let the other nations plunder them. Only in that way does Jehovah "create evil."

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #68

Post by Miles »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Nov 29, 2021 7:48 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 8:37 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sun Nov 28, 2021 7:36 pm [Replying to Miles in post #62]
I am interested only in the "evil" that you say God has created.
( Just to keep things straight here, it isn't "created" as in the past tense, but create as in the present tense ("I . . . create evil"). God continues to create evil, even today. )

And if you're interested only in the "evil" that I say God has created, this is fine, but you still haven't addressed the other issue you brought up

"That is what "creating evil" means. Evil , in this sense = unpleasantness and hard times."

and I asked you about

"Then there must be chapter and verse saying as much: That the evil in "creating evil" means unpleasantness and hard times. I also await what "creating evil" means in the other senses you don't mention."

.
I have explained over and again what God "creating evil" means. I can't put it in any other way to make you understand what I am saying.
Of course that's NOT what I'm asking. I'm asking for two (2) things.

1. The Bible chapter and verse saying the evil in "creating evil" means unpleasantness and hard times.

2. What "creating evil" means in the other senses you don't mention."



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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #69

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to Miles in post #68]

I gave you an example of what "creating evil" means in regard to Jehovah, when I cited Deuteronomy. It shows exactly what it means. If you don't get it, that's ok. We just agree to disagree.

I don't understand what you want with your #2.

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Re: What Makes a Christian a Christian - Does Anyone Know?

Post #70

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #69]



Deuteronomy 28:1
“And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth:”


To this day humans have seen no such evidence of any individual, culture, nation, [et al] being "set on high above all nations of the earth", so are we to take from that, that this is not what makes a Christian and Christian?

Rather, is a Christian someone who believes in a future event becoming true, in the idea that biblical Jesus will eventually be the one who will prove to be "set on high above all nations of the earth" once he is given permission to return and take his place re that position?

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