Not Needed By God

[William]

The very idea that יהוה doesn't need assistance flies in the face of all the biblical stories told. Surely you are misrepresenting יהוה in that regard.

There are no biblical stories where God has "needed assistance" he needs noone to accomplish his purpose.

The fact that He has condescended to allow humans to play a part therein does not equates to his being unable to achieved what he wants without them. The bible repeatedly refers to Jehovah as the Almighty, so logically being all powerful an omnipotent God has no need of extra input to do what he wants. If Jehovah delegates its an expression of his love and mercy as the righteous view it as a privilege to be used by God.

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?



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[2timothy316]

[Replying to William in post #30]
You're welcome to your opinion of course.
I address Him as He describes Himself. (Ge 17:1; 28:3; 35:11; 43:14; 48:3; Ex 6:3; Eze 10:5)

[William]

[Replying to William in post #30]

I address Him as He describes Himself.

No. The TRUTH is - others claim that an entity addressed himself that way to them. Therefore you are addressing him as others have described him.

(Ge 17:1; 28:3; 35:11; 43:14; 48:3; Ex 6:3; Eze 10:5)

I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

An unverified claim, from an unknown entity, to a human.
Any unknown entity [even an unscrupulous one] can make such claims but need not be believed simply because of its claim.

And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;

Any unknown entity [even an unscrupulous one] can make such assertion if it knows that humans procreate, and how this activity multiplies humans.

And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

Any unknown entity [even an unscrupulous one] can evaluate outcomes based upon human ability to pro-create and the way in which human social structures/cultures/beliefs/politics come into play.

And God Almighty give you mercy before the man, that he may send away your other brother, and Benjamin. If I be bereaved of my children, I am bereaved.

Any human [even an unscrupulous one] can call upon the idea of a God Almighty in relation to their particular experience of life on earth.

And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,

Any human [even an unscrupulous one] can claim to have seen God Almighty visit them.

And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Any unknown entity [even an unscrupulous one] can make such claims which any human can believe in, without requiring evidence of such claims being true.
Of course, this does not mean that such claims are true.

And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.

Any cherubims' wings can be thought of as how the voice of an almighty entity might sound like. This does not mean that such noise is what the voice of an almighty entity would sound like.
___________________
This is fun.

Do you have any more?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to William in post #32]

Again you are welcome to your opinion. I don't debate opinions.

Are you saying the Bible isn't true and that I have to prove that it is and that I have to defend it's authority?

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #33]

Are you saying the Bible isn't true and that I have to prove that it is and that I have to defend it's authority?

Nope. I am showing that the biblical quotes you gave regarding claims of almightiness, can be explained in a variety of logical ways.

Search "Appeals to authority"
Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based on unsound logic. ... Whether the person is actually an authority or not, the logic is unsound. Instead of presenting actual evidence, the argument just relies on the credibility of the "authority."




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[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #33]

Are you saying the Bible isn't true and that I have to prove that it is and that I have to defend it's authority?

Nope. I am showing that the biblical quotes you gave regarding claims of almightiness, can be explained in a variety of logical ways.

These explanations you give are opinion though and hold no weight.

Can you prove that God didn't say what was recorded at Genesis 17:1?

Did you know that the term Almighty is in the Bible 41 times? It is used to denote only one person. It points to the One that no thing and no one is higher than. This means there is nothing He needs.

Search "Appeals to authority"
Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based on unsound logic. ... Whether the person is actually an authority or not, the logic is unsound. Instead of presenting actual evidence, the argument just relies on the credibility of the "authority."
.

Said the pot to the kettle. Do you have evidence to present other than your authority logic? Which BTW something logical doesn't make your argument vaild. So I don't know why you're pressing the logic button so much.
https://www.psychologicalscience.org/pu ... -true.html

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #35]

I cannot prove that an entity did or did not appear to Abram, and claim that it was Almighty.

That wasn't even my argument against the selection of biblical quotes you gave. I will supply this argument again.

I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
An unverified claim, from an unknown entity, to a human.
Any unknown entity [even an unscrupulous one] can make such claims but need not be believed simply because of its claim.
And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;
Any unknown entity [even an unscrupulous one] can make such assertion if it knows that humans procreate, and how this activity multiplies humans.
And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;
Any unknown entity [even an unscrupulous one] can evaluate outcomes based upon human ability to pro-create and the way in which human social structures/cultures/beliefs/politics come into play.
And God Almighty give you mercy before the man, that he may send away your other brother, and Benjamin. If I be bereaved of my children, I am bereaved.
Any human [even an unscrupulous one] can call upon the idea of a God Almighty in relation to their particular experience of life on earth.
And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
Any human [even an unscrupulous one] can claim to have seen God Almighty visit them.
And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Any unknown entity [even an unscrupulous one] can make such claims which any human can believe in, without requiring evidence of such claims being true.
Of course, this does not mean that such claims are true.
And the sound of the cherubims' wings was heard even to the outer court, as the voice of the Almighty God when he speaketh.
Any cherubims' wings can be thought of as how the voice of an almighty entity might sound like. This does not mean that such noise is what the voice of an almighty entity would sound like.

I am showing that the biblical quotes you gave regarding claims of almightiness, can be explained in a variety of logical ways. This is to show that your particular opinion on these passages is no more valid than anyone else's.

Search "Appeals to authority"
Appeal to authority is a common type of fallacy, or an argument based on unsound logic. ... Whether the person is actually an authority or not, the logic is unsound. Instead of presenting actual evidence, the argument just relies on the credibility of the "authority."

Do you have evidence to present other than your authority logic?

It is not something I made up. It is something which is regarded as a common type of debating fallacy, and one in which you are trying to use to prop up your opinion regarding the bible and how you interpret its passages. I mentioned it primarily because you asked me if I was saying the Bible isn't true and that you have to prove that it is and that you have to defend it's authority.

I don't debate opinions.

You haven't established that my arguments are simply 'opinions'.

In that you are simply avoiding the arguments with the classic strawman tactic, which is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of giving the impression of refuting an argument, whereas the real subject of the argument is itself not addressed or refuted, but instead replaced with a false one.

I have no interest in such distraction, and will call it as it shows itself.

So either address my argument, or don't, but please note that I am happy to disengage if the progress of actual debate continues to be hampered by the tactics you are currently using.

Thanks.

[2timothy316]

Do you have evidence to present other than your authority logic?

It is not something I made up.

Explaining things in 'logical ways' doesn't make what you say true about the term God Almighty. The term Almighty God was not something I made up either.

I don't debate opinions.

You haven't established that my arguments are simply 'opinions'.

You have not established any facts. When you use the phrase 'can be explained as' to describe something from the Bible, you're not establishing a fact, you're giving your opinion. That means nothing in the way of evidence or truth, it just you expressing your thoughts on scripture. Which is fine but that doesn't add facts to the debate and I don't care to address such dogmatic opinions, it's a waste of time.

So bring real evidence and not empty 'logical ways' (which is just another way to say its your opinion) to look at something and then sell it off as true.
Until you bring something other than your opinion of Gen 17:1 to prove Gen 17:1 means something else, then there is no reason to trust what is said at Gen 17:1 doesn't mean exactly the way it reads.
God Almighty is exactly what it means, God is Almighty and the burden of proof (not opinion) is on you to prove it means something different and logic isn't proof.

Arguments coming from what COULD be true but having no supporting evidence is call an 'argument from ignorance'.

[2timothy316]

I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

An unverified claim, from an unknown entity, to a human.

That doesn't matter in this forum. In this forum what was said in Gen 17:1 is our primary reference and you can't challenge if it's true or not.

[William]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #15]

If the term 'almighty' means all capable and is apt, then it would make logical sense to say god can do anything without any assistance.

Search "Almighty"
having complete power; omnipotent.

It appears to mean all powerful rather than say - all wise or all knowing. So someone that is all powerful but doesn't have the wisdom or knowledge to use that power, in the best way, they may indeed require assistance in doing some things. Not everything one can do, requires being all powerful.
in the OP, JW is quoted as saying;

The fact that He has condescended to allow humans to play a part therein does not equates to his being unable to achieved what he wants without them.

The fact that we do not know that things created are not needed in order for an almighty being to get what it wants, means questions can be asked re that.




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[nobspeople]

[Replying to William in post #39]

Of course it doesn't mean all knowing or all wise, as those are different terms with different meanings.

So someone that is all powerful but doesn't have the wisdom or knowledge to use that power, in the best way, they may indeed require assistance in doing some things.

Perhaps, but that doesn't change the fact that, being all powerful, it could do things it doesn't even know about. But it should be noted here, it's been said not only is god all powerful, it's all knowing (which seems to include having all wisdom) and, well, basically all-everything 'good' (though some christians would argue that).
That said, your supplied definition doesn't seem to change my initial statement as being all capable and all apt is incorporated with all powerful.

Not everything one can do, requires being all powerful.

Well, we aren't gods so the comparison isn't justified. That said, I would say being all powerful means we can do everything, if only we knew about everything. Sorta' like not every rectangle is a square, but every square is a rectangle or whatever that saying is.

The fact that we do not know that things created are not needed in order for an almighty being to get what it wants, means questions can be asked re that.

Question everything, if for no other reason than to learn.