"I shall be his father...."

[Athetotheist]

"For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?" So asks the author of Hebrews 1:5. The argument being made is that Jesus, the supposed "Messiah", is higher than the angels because he has been given a greater name.

If this were to be refuted, where would the reader be expected to look for such refutation? The reader would look in scripture, right? If all scripture is inspired by God and profitable for doctrine (2 Tim. 3:16), that would be the go-to source.

"I shall be his father and he shall be my son." So is Jehovah quoted by the author of 2 Samuel 7:14. Who is the son in this verse whom the father is claiming? Solomon.

Applying the logic of Hebrews 1:5, when did Jehovah say at any time, "I will be his father and he will be my son" referring to the Messiah, since it's generally agreed that the Messiah wasn't Solomon?

(Note: trying to fit Solomon in as a "forerunner of the Messiah" doesn't work, since a messianic "forerunner" would still be a mere human and thus couldn't be given a name higher than that of the angels.)

[JehovahsWitness]

(Note: trying to fit Solomon in as a "forerunner of the Messiah" doesn't work, since a messianic "forerunner" would still be a mere human and thus couldn't be given a name higher than that of the angels.)

Scripturally a "forerunner" (the biblical "type") does not have to be equal to its antitype: it simply illustrates a pattern which is later repeated in some way (see Matthew 12:42)

[Athetotheist]

(Note: trying to fit Solomon in as a "forerunner of the Messiah" doesn't work, since a messianic "forerunner" would still be a mere human and thus couldn't be given a name higher than that of the angels.)

Scripturally a "forerunner" (the biblical "type") does not have to be equal to its antitype: it simply illustrates a pattern which is later repeated in some way (see Matthew 12:42)

If only the Messiah is given a name greater than the angels, there shouldn't be any pattern to repeat.

[JehovahsWitness]

(Note: trying to fit Solomon in as a "forerunner of the Messiah" doesn't work, since a messianic "forerunner" would still be a mere human and thus couldn't be given a name higher than that of the angels.)

Scripturally a "forerunner" (the biblical "type") does not have to be equal to its antitype: it simply illustrates a pattern which is later repeated in some way (see Matthew 12:42)

If only the Messiah is given a name greater than the angels, there shouldn't be any pattern to repeat.

I'm not sure I understand what you're saying "shouldn't" ? ...shouldn't according to whose criteria? Biblical patterns are fairly frequent in scripture, whether they "should" be there or not and they never present absolute parallels in every conceivable aspect (which would arguably make them repetitions ).



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

...when did Jehovah say at any time, "I will be his father and he will be my son" referring to the Messiah, since it's generally agreed that the Messiah wasn't Solomon?

At no time does scripture claim to be a record of everything Jehovah has ever uttered. The most we can say is, what is recorded in the bible canon, is enough for us to believe that if God did say those exact words to his son, he said them to Jesus of Nazareth (compare Mark 1:11, Lkke 9:35, 2 Pet 1:17)

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #5]

At no time does scripture claim to be a record of everything Jehovah has ever uttered.

Then how do we know it was never said of an angel just because that isn't written anywhere? If it could be said of Solomon, who was "lower than the angels" (Psalm 8:5), couldn't it have been said of an angel?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #5]

At no time does scripture claim to be a record of everything Jehovah has ever uttered.

Then how do we know it was never said of an angel just because that isn't written anywhere? If it could be said of Solomon, who was "lower than the angels" (Psalm 8:5), couldn't it have been said of an angel?

It could have been said of an angel but scripture indicates it wasn't.



JW

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #5]

At no time does scripture claim to be a record of everything Jehovah has ever uttered.

Then how do we know it was never said of an angel just because that isn't written anywhere? If it could be said of Solomon, who was "lower than the angels" (Psalm 8:5), couldn't it have been said of an angel?

Or could have been said of a angel but scripture indicate say it wasn't.



JW

The scripture in Hebrews indicates that it doesn't apply to anyone but the Messiah. So why is it said of Solomon?

[JehovahsWitness]

The scripture in Hebrews indicates that >> it<< doesn't apply to anyone but the Messiah. So why is it said of Solomon?

Empnasis MINE

"It" being the Promise made to ... SOLOMON :

The passage in Hebrews is saying: ... in the same way Jehovah promised to become a Father to Solomon, Jehovah made a similar promise to became a Father to the Messiah. The writer is saying (using rhetorical questions) that that "Solomon style promise" was not made to any of the angels.


JW







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[Athetotheist]

The scripture in Hebrews indicates that >> it<< doesn't apply to anyone but the Messiah. So why is it said of Solomon?

Empnasis MINE

"It" being the Promise made to ... SOLOMON :

The passage in Hebrews is saying: ... in the same way Jehovah promised to become a Father to Solomon, Jehovah made a similar promise to became a Father to the Messiah. The writer is saying (using rhetorical questions) that that "Solomon style promise" was not made to any of the angels.


JW

Actually, the passage in Hebrews is saying:

"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?"

How is the author saying anything about a "Solomon style promise" when he makes no mention of Solomon? Did being given that "more excellent name" make Solomon better than the angels?