When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #351Oh man, you oughta see some of the haircuts the grandgirls've given me over the years. And how they do my makeup and nails. They each get a side, cause fair. I looked either gorgeous, or hideous over Thanksgiving. Pretty thing has all the pictures, in an obvious ploy to blackmail me in the future.
Don't care, grandgirls.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #352My thinking is that every doubter is potentially one mystical experience away from becoming spiritual. If someone has never encountered demons, then it is unlikely that they will accept explanations of any sort.mgb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:57 am This is the way spiritual questions in general should be approached: Does the spiritual explanation sound convincing? Does the world look as if there is a spiritual dimension to it? Is the spiritual explanation congruent with the world we observe? Is it a convincing explanation?
This is why I advocate for people to not just read to learn but also engage in field research. My first discussion on this forum was about using field research to discover the nature and origin of life, consciousness, and the Universe.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #353If your intention is to cause distress for its own sake yes you are being cruel.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:47 pm In denying a child a snack between meals, is my intent to cause em to go hungry, or keep the pretty thing from finding out I gave him a snack?
What you declare is not the issue. Your intention is the issue. Here is Peterson on Hitler's intentions-Even if I declare my intent was to be cruel, I could just as easily, per my example above, declare my intent was to be kind.
Last edited by mgb on Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:29 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #354I agree but my intention in this thread is to argue that theist arguments are reasonable and this constitutes evidence. People can admit that an argument is reasonable but still say it is not true because reason and truth are not the same. Logic and truth are not the same.Swami wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:04 amMy thinking is that every doubter is potentially one mystical experience away from becoming spiritual. If someone has never encountered demons, then it is unlikely that they will accept explanations of any sort.mgb wrote: ↑Sun Dec 12, 2021 10:57 am This is the way spiritual questions in general should be approached: Does the spiritual explanation sound convincing? Does the world look as if there is a spiritual dimension to it? Is the spiritual explanation congruent with the world we observe? Is it a convincing explanation?
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #355Who are you to decide what's cruel?mgb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:47 amIf your intention is to cause distress for its own sake yes you are being cruel.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:47 pm In denying a child a snack between meals, is my intent to cause em to go hungry, or keep the pretty thing from finding out I gave him a snack?
Who are you to decide who's being cruel?
You're still stuck with a subjective term.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #356I'm telling you what cruelty is by definition. But semantics don't matter, a person who willfully causes suffering is doing evil whether you call it cruelty or not. Do you really think Hitler's atrocities are a matter of opinion?JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:02 amWho are you to decide what's cruel?mgb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:47 amIf your intention is to cause distress for its own sake yes you are being cruel.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Tue Dec 14, 2021 5:47 pm In denying a child a snack between meals, is my intent to cause em to go hungry, or keep the pretty thing from finding out I gave him a snack?
Who are you to decide who's being cruel?
You're still stuck with a subjective term.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #357Then Hitler, considering his acts justified, could not possibly be evil. Remember, he thought he was saving humanity from the Jews (and others). It can't be shown, beyond Hitler's opinion, if he felt he was causing suffering.
This is the kinda conundrum you create when trying to use a subjective moral value to declare an objective moral truth.
All you do, all you've done is to declare what you consider to be imposing suffering.
Where have you shown the victims of such suffering (as defined by you) agree they were suffering? Where have you shown you know the minds of folks that, according to you, have imposed "suffering"?
Sure, we can define suffering, what we can't do is use our personal opinion to declare who or what is suffering, as a reliable means of confirming the existed of "evil" (as religiously understood).
That opinion is left strictly to those who feel they've suffered.
So, you're back to square one. How are you ever gonna show "evil" to be anything beyond the opinion of folks telling about it?
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #358Hitler was a violent, murderous individual. He was driven by hatred.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:01 pm Then Hitler, considering his acts justified, could not possibly be evil.
I have not mentioned any particular individual but are you going to argue that nobody ever suffered at the hands of a cruel individual? You can discuss specific cases all day but that does not alter the reality of evil and cruelty in people's hearts and minds. I'm not talking here about criminality in society in general, I'm talking about what is in people's hearts and minds.Where have you shown the victims of such suffering (as defined by you) agree they were suffering?
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #359None of those words, in any order they may be configured, refute the fact they're your subjective opinion.mgb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:30 pmHitler was a violent, murderous individual. He was driven by hatred.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:01 pm Then Hitler, considering his acts justified, could not possibly be evil.
How many folks do ya think were happy for him?
So we're left with your personal, subjective opinion.I have not mentioned any particular individual...Where have you shown the victims of such suffering (as defined by you) agree they were suffering?
You're the one trying to use subjective opinions to shore up your "evil exists" (as a demon or other religious deal). I'm under no obligation to provide an opinion of my own. Please consult the mods if you find this condition too upsetting.but are you going to argue that nobody ever suffered at the hands of a cruel individual?
By what means can we confirm you know what's in the hearts and minds of any but yourself.You can discuss specific cases all day but that does not alter the reality of evil and cruelty in people's hearts and minds.
As above, I await confirmation of your heart and mind reading prowess.I'm not talking here about criminality in society in general, I'm talking about what is in people's hearts and minds.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #360It has nothing to do with mind reading, it has to do with common sense and the knowledge that cruelty is a reality.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:45 pm As above, I await confirmation of your heart and mind reading prowess.
You seem to be saying that there is no cruelty anywhere and never has been. I have to disagree.