When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
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Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #361I'm saying cruelty, no matter how objectively defined, can only be considered in light of one's subjective opinion regarding the matter.mgb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:23 pmIt has nothing to do with mind reading, it has to do with common sense and the knowledge that cruelty is a reality.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 2:45 pm As above, I await confirmation of your heart and mind reading prowess.
You seem to be saying that there is no cruelty anywhere and never has been. I have to disagree.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #362You asked me for an example of evil. Cruelty. Subjectivity concerning particular examples don't matter. What matters is that it is evil.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:58 pm I'm saying cruelty, no matter how objectively defined, can only be considered in light of one's subjective opinion regarding the matter.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #363What's considered cruel by one might be considered discomforting by another. Waterboarding comes to mind.mgb wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 5:27 amYou asked me for an example of evil. Cruelty. Subjectivity concerning particular examples don't matter. What matters is that it is evil.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:58 pm I'm saying cruelty, no matter how objectively defined, can only be considered in light of one's subjective opinion regarding the matter.
Thus, "evil" is the product of subjective moral values. You're just not gonna be able to escape this fact.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #364Do you mean can they be demonstrated?Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Maybe 'demons' are those who don't really like existing, but while they do, they will demonstrate in their own ways, just how much they don't like existence?
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #365I have already explained, it is not a matter of opinion. Either a person is cruel or is not. Opinion won't change that.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:56 am What's considered cruel by one might be considered discomforting by another. Waterboarding comes to mind.
Are you seriously saying that the ill treatment of the Jews by the Nazis was a matter of opinion? That their suffering is not real and only a subjective opinion in someone else's mind? This kind of argument belongs with the arguments that reality doesn't exist, we don't have minds, we don't exist, everything came from nothing, but never mind that, there's whole multiverse of it and we are all in a virtual reality, even though that doesn't exist either because we don't. This kind of nerdified, juvenile nonsense is no more than scientistic superstition and this is the kind of thing you are descending into with your reductive nihilism and relativism. Do you think anyone on the receiving end of Nazi sadism would argue that it is merely a matter of opinion whether it is right or wrong?
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #366So who decides if something is cruel or not?mgb wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 5:51 amI have already explained, it is not a matter of opinion. Either a person is cruel or is not. Opinion won't change that.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 7:56 am What's considered cruel by one might be considered discomforting by another. Waterboarding comes to mind.
I'm saying, per your argument of intent, that we can't know the minds of others. Did the all the Nazis think their actions were cruel? How can we know?Are you seriously saying that the ill treatment of the Jews by the Nazis was a matter of opinion? That their suffering is not real and only a subjective opinion in someone else's mind?
I'll thank you not to call me a "nerdified, juvenile" in such a libelous way.This kind of argument belongs with the arguments that reality doesn't exist, we don't have minds, we don't exist, everything came from nothing, but never mind that, there's whole multiverse of it and we are all in a virtual reality, even though that doesn't exist either because we don't. This kind of nerdified, juvenile nonsense is no more than scientistic superstition and this is the kind of thing you are descending into with your reductive nihilism and relativism.
As you mentioned intent, I seek to understand how you can know the minds of others, that you could declare em "cruel".Do you think anyone on the receiving end of Nazi sadism would argue that it is merely a matter of opinion whether it is right or wrong?
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #367It doesn't matter. I was asked for an example of evil not evidence that some particular individual is evil. Our estimation of music is subjective but that does not mean music does not exist. Likewise with out estimation of art, literature, poetry...just because there is subjectivity does not mean they are not real things. Likewise with cruelty/evil.
Ilse Koch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_KochDid all the Nazis think their actions were cruel? How can we know?
I didn't. I just said you are eating from a bad trashcan.I'll thank you not to call me a "nerdified, juvenile" in such a libelous way.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #368So if I say debating on a website's cruel, well there we go?
And in such, you'll only ever profer your subjective opinion on it.I was asked for an example of evil not evidence that some particular individual is evil.
I'm not saying cruelty doesn't exist. I'm saying that determining what's cruel (especially as relates to evil) is a matter of subjective opinion.Our estimation of music is subjective but that does not mean music does not exist.
And with art, and literature, and poetry, we'll find folks with differing opinions on the quality thereof.Likewise with out estimation of art, literature, poetry...just because there is subjectivity does not mean they are not real things. Likewise with cruelty/evil.
I read that, but didn't see me nothing that showed her intent, her thoughts, were to inflict cruelty / evil.Ilse Koch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_KochDid all the Nazis think their actions were cruel? How can we know?
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.I didn't. I just said you are eating from a bad trashcan.I'll thank you not to call me a "nerdified, juvenile" in such a libelous way.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I won't let the bad guy make me one too.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #369The world is filled with it from domestic violence, bullying in the workplace, in schools, in Guantanamo - I could go on and on. Subjective opinion about any particular case changes none of this.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:43 pm I'm not saying cruelty doesn't exist. I'm saying that determining what's cruel (especially as relates to evil) is a matter of subjective opinion.
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Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #370The courts disagree.mgb wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:45 pmThe world is filled with it from domestic violence, bullying in the workplace, in schools, in Guantanamo - I could go on and on. Subjective opinion about any particular case changes none of this.JoeyKnothead wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 12:43 pm I'm not saying cruelty doesn't exist. I'm saying that determining what's cruel (especially as relates to evil) is a matter of subjective opinion.
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