JESUS IS NOT GOD

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onewithhim
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JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #1

Post by onewithhim »

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #301

Post by onewithhim »

FaithWillDo wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:27 am [Replying to onewithhim in post #297]

You asked:
I don't know where you are getting the idea that "someday we too will be called gods." Can you provide chapter and verse please?

Here are the verses:

John 10:34 - 35 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Mankind is in the process of changing from "man" (Adam) into children of God. If we are children of God, then we are gods.

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

You asked:
You say that Jesus is "I AM." You get that from a sloppy translation of John 8:58. That verse does not mean that Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. He never was Jehovah. His name means "Salvation OF Jehovah," that is, Jehovah's means of salvation. You need to look more into "Jehovah" and how many times His name is in the Old Testament (7,000 times), and how He is distinct from the Messiah, Jesus Christ. I'd be interested to know where you get your information from.

The Father (Jehovah) only communicated to mankind through Christ. Christ even said:

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Christ is the Word of God and He is the one who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. He is the "I am" and that is why Christ said:

John 8:58 Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

Even the Jews He spoke to understood His meaning and they immediately picked up stones to stone Him.
True, the Father communicated through Jesus to mankind, but that doesn't make him "the great I AM." Speaking with Moses Jesus communicated what the Father in heaven, Jehovah, was saying THROUGH him. How do you reason that Jesus is "the I AM" just because he spoke to Moses through the burning bush? Everything he said was representing what Jehovah wanted to say.

John 8:58 is a sad rendering of what Jesus said in perfectly acceptable Greek, addressing the fact that he was OLDER than Abraham.....not that he was God. The Pharisees wanted to stone him not for claiming to be God but because he was claiming to be alive before Abraham lived. This was insulting to their devotion to their father Abraham. What Jesus actually said was: "I existed before Abraham was even born." A far cry from "I Am." If you do some research, you will see that other Bible translators don't even say that Exodus 3:14 uses the words "I Am." Some say: "I Will Be What I Will Be" (Leeser), "I Will Become Whatsoever I Please" (Rotherham), or "I Will Be There Howsoever I Will Be There" (Everett Fox). Could Jesus have said, "Before Abraham was, I Will"?? You can't use John 8:58 to prove anything.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #302

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #298]

If anyone baptized ONLY in the name of Jesus, they would have been going contrary to Matthew 28:19 which says to baptize in the name of the Father as well as the name of the Son. It is sad when people leave Jehovah out of everything, and I wonder why they do this.

Can you respond to my original post please? There are many references there to the fact that Jesus is NOT God.
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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #303

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #302]

Your arguments seem to be going in circles. I have never said that Jesus is God the Father. But He is mankind's god and He is the spiritual representation of the Father. Jesus is not the Father. He is a separate person from the Father, like you and I are separate. But spiritually speaking, Jesus and the Father are "one" and the same. Everything that Jesus said can be attributed to the Father as well.

God the Father is the creator of mankind BUT He did His work THROUGH Jesus. God the Father's interaction with this creation goes THROUGH Jesus. Jesus is the one who created mankind and spoke to the OT fathers. God the Father never directly interacted with mankind. He used Jesus for that direct interaction. I don't know how to make it clearer.

Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #304

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #302]

The names Jesus and Jehovah are the same name. That is why the Apostles ONLY baptized in the name of Jesus. Are you saying that the Apostles mistakenly left out the name "Jehovah" when they baptized believers? Are you saying that they should have baptized in the name of Jehovah and Jesus?

There is only ONE name under heaven whereby we can be saved.

Acts 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

That name is the name of Jesus, which is a transliteration of the name Jehovah.

Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #305

Post by Miles »

FaithWillDo wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 1:12 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #302]

The names Jesus and Jehovah are the same name.
Nope.


Jesus
personal name of the Christian Savior, late 12c.; it is the Greek form of Joshua, used variously in translations of the Bible. From Late Latin Iesus (properly pronounced as three syllables), from Greek Iesous, which is an attempt to render into Greek the Aramaic (Semitic) proper name Jeshua (Hebrew Yeshua, Yoshua) "Jah is salvation." This was a common Jewish personal name during the Hellenizing period; it is the later form of Hebrew Yehoshua (see Joshua).

Old English used hælend "savior." The common Middle English form was Jesu/Iesu, from the Old French objective case form, from Latin oblique form Iesu (genitive, dative, ablative, vocative), surviving in some invocations. As an oath, attested from late 14c. For Jesus H. Christ (1924), see I.H.S. First record of Jesus freak is from 1970.
source


Jehovah
1530, Tyndale's transliteration of Hebrew Tetragrammaton YHWH using vowel points of Adhonai "my lord" (see Yahweh). Used for YHWH (the full name being too sacred for utterance) in four places in the Old Testament in the KJV where the usual translation the lord would have been inconvenient; taken as the principal and personal name of God.

The vowel substitution was originally made by the Masoretes as a direction to substitute Adhonai for "the ineffable name." European students of Hebrew took this literally, which yielded Latin JeHoVa (first attested in writings of Galatinus, confessor to Leo X, 1516). Jehovah's Witnesses "member of Watchtower Bible and Tract Society" first attested 1933; the organization founded c. 1879 by Charles Taze Russell (1852-1916); the name from Isaiah xliii.10.
source


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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #306

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to Miles in post #305]

As you said, Jesus means salvation. Salvation only comes from the name of Jesus:

Acts 4: 10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I was remembering incorrectly when I said that Jesus is the transliteration of Jehovah. I should have said Yeshua.

But regardless, Christ came in the name of the Father (full power and authority, not the Father's literal name):

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

As Isa 9:6 says, Jesus is called the Mighty God and Father because He represents God the Father. He is the "I am" from the burning bush and the one who wrote the ten commandants. Everything the Father did with mankind was accomplished through Jesus.

Jesus is the only name whereby mankind is saved.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #307

Post by Miles »

FaithWillDo wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 6:50 pm [Replying to Miles in post #305]

As you said, Jesus means salvation. Salvation only comes from the name of Jesus:

Acts 4: 10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

I was remembering incorrectly when I said that Jesus is the transliteration of Jehovah. I should have said Yeshua.

But regardless, Christ came in the name of the Father (full power and authority, not the Father's literal name):

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

As Isa 9:6 says, Jesus is called the Mighty God and Father because He represents God the Father. He is the "I am" from the burning bush and the one who wrote the ten commandants. Everything the Father did with mankind was accomplished through Jesus.

Jesus is the only name whereby mankind is saved
.

Joe
Which, according to the latest Pew poll, is becoming less meaningful all the time, at least in the USA.

................................ Image

..........................................source


That's a 23% plummet in only 14 years.



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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #308

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to Miles in post #307]

True, there seems to be darker times coming to this country and to the world BUT it is all happening by the "will" of God. God through Jesus is in complete control of all things that happen to mankind. Nothing happens that God does not cause to happen. He never just "allows" anything to happen, He causes it to happen. We must trust in Him (walk by faith) and be patient for God to complete His work in this world. Here are a few verses:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do. (Darby)

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.


In the end, all mankind will be saved and will give glory to God. What most believers do not understand is that our salvation, even the timing of it, is by the "will" and "work" of God. In this present age, Christ is only saving His "First Fruits" of His harvest of mankind. They are the early portion, the heirs, the saints, the overcomers, the Elect, etc. No one else will be saved in this age if they were not "chosen from the foundation of the world". We cannot save ourselves nor even decide the timing of our salvation. It is solely the work of Christ.

Scripture says that "many" are called out from the world to be saints but only a "few" are chosen. These chosen few are the First Fruits and are being saved in this present age. In the final age, Christ will shift His work to bringing in the remaining harvest of mankind.

If you believe that Christ cannot accomplish this great work of saving mankind, then you believe that mankind must contribute to our own salvation in some way. That is a doctrine of works and is rejected by Christ. Christ does 100% of the work necessary to save a person. And His "work" is spiritual work which He performs "within" mankind. He is the one who changes our hearts and minds.

Paul's conversion is the pattern whereby all mankind will be saved. Paul was "called out" on the Damascus Road (Early Rain of the Spirit) and then three days later (the number three means a complete spiritual process), Paul received the Baptism of the Spirit (the Latter Rain of the Spirit) and was saved. Unless Christ does this work within a person, they cannot be saved.

By the end of the final age, this statement will be proven to be true:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

For now, we must have patience and wait on the Lord to do His work within mankind. This is our blessed hope and He will not fail us, not a single person.

Joe

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #309

Post by myth-one.com »

FaithWillDo wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:43 am In the end, all mankind will be saved and will give glory to God.
So God will force salvation on every human who ever lived?
FaithWillDo wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 10:43 amWe cannot save ourselves nor even decide the timing of our salvation. It is solely the work of Christ.
The Bible states that one must believe in Jesus as their Savior to be saved. Is that incorrect?

And the timing of believers receiving everlasting life is already set in the Bible. Believers will be born again of the Spirit as everlasting spiritual bodied beings at or after the Second Coming.

Just a few comments.

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Re: JESUS IS NOT GOD

Post #310

Post by FaithWillDo »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #309]

Dear Myth-one,

You asked:
So God will force salvation on every human who ever lived?
The Bible states that one must believe in Jesus as their Savior to be saved. Is that incorrect?


God never forces someone to be saved but He does cause it to happen. In our created spiritual state, no man can understand God or even have a desire to seek Him out:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

This verse is a simple but very profound verse but few actually believe it. If you believe that you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord without Christ FIRST coming to you and giving you the gift of the Holy Spirit (without you asking for it), then your belief is contradicted by this verse.

Because of the grace of God, Jesus Christ will come to each of us in "due time" and change us from within. He does this work by giving us the Holy Spirit. Only after we receive this free gift will we call Jesus "Lord".

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Once the Holy Spirit is indwelling us, we will no longer "call Jesus accursed". We will only call Him Lord. This verse is also a very profound verse that is ignored by mainstream teaching.

Our salvation happens ONLY by Christ coming to us and giving us the Holy Spirit. He does this work because of the grace of God. He does not ask us for permission nor do we ask Him for the gift. If we do ask Him for the gift of the Holy Spirit, then we already have it. Without the Spirit, we will not seek Him out or be willing to call Him "Lord".

Do you believe these verses?

Scripture says that Paul’s conversion is the “pattern” or “type” by which all others will be saved.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

In order to understand this “pattern” (type), we must spiritually understand the steps of Paul’s conversion as recorded for us in Acts 9:3-19.

This first set of verses below “types” Paul’s time of being Called Out from the world. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

These first events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to be “called out from the world” (enter the Church).

When an individual is Called Out from the world to follow Christ, Christ will come to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ in our "marred" spiritual condition as is commonly taught. If we did, it would be a "work". If Christ decides to come to a person in the present age, it is a spiritual event which happens "within" us (Luke 17:21). Christ in now "spirit" and cannot be seen with human eyes.

When Christ spiritually comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit, they immediately fall to the earth just as Paul did (in type). The “earth” represents mankind’s carnality. The new believer has risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell upon the earth. The “earth” symbolizes the new believer’s carnality which still remains. Paul's blindness represents his spiritual blindness.

Since the new believer is still carnally minded and spiritually blind upon receiving the Early Rain, they cannot recognize the “voice” which calls to them. They must rely on being told who the voice is. After being told that the voice is the voice of Jesus, Paul answers back to Christ as “Lord”. Since scripture says that no one can call Jesus “Lord” but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3), we know that this event happening to Paul is the Early Rain of the Spirit. Paul calls Him “Lord” but lacks the ability to know Him for himself. Christ remains hidden (veiled) from Paul’s understanding, just as He remains hidden to all who experience the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Paul then asks Christ “what wilt thou have me to do”? Because Paul remains carnally minded, he believes that he must “do something” to earn the Lord’s favor. The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (ministers of Satan) there will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer becomes deceived and “falls away”.

From verse 7, we see that no one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This visitation by Christ is only for the person who has been “called out”. It is a spiritual event and happens “within” Paul.

After Paul stands up and opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. Scripture goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines presented to them in the church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves.

After Paul arrived in Damascus, verse 9 says that Paul remained blind and did not eat or drink for 3 days. Paul’s time of spiritual blindness and inability to eat the true bread from heaven or to drink the New Wine causes him to fall prey to Satan’s deceptions. He quickly “falls away” from faith and returns to “works” (2Thes 2:3). Because he rejects approaching Christ by faith alone, he commits the sin that leads to death. Now his new spiritual state is worse than his first when he was an unbeliever. He has become a Man of Sin under Satan’s influence.

This second set of verses below represents Paul’s conversion.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current fallen away state and that Paul will bear Christ’s name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.

In verse 17, Christ (symbolized by Ananias) comes to Paul a second time and heals his spiritual blindness and gives him the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Because Paul’s blindness is healed, Christ “appears” to Him. Paul no longer needs to be told who Christ is because he can now see Christ for himself. Paul can now start eating “meat” (truth).

Once Paul receives his nourishment from Christ, the brightness of Christ’s appearing (truth) destroys Paul’s religious carnal nature (the Great city Babylon/Sodom/Egypt/earthly Jerusalem) which taught him to approach God through Works of the flesh.

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Now that the Great City is destroyed within Paul, Paul is empowered by the Spirit to walk by faith in Christ (the New Wine/Blood of Christ), the true and narrow pathway that leads to God. He can now begin drinking the New Wine. The Man of Sin is now dead within Paul and he is “born again”. “Saul” is now given the new name of “Paul”, a child of God.

The Early and Latter Rain teaching is the core of the "great mystery of Christ and the church" (Eph 5:32). It is the most concealed teaching in scripture but yet it is taught in many places - it is just not "seen".

Mankind's salvation is solely dependent upon the work of Christ who cannot fail. We cannot save ourselves. If we could, then some might have found salvation through the Old Covenant of Law. But none did. The Law was given to prove to mankind that we can never be good enough in the eyes of God to restore our relationship with Him. Once a person is given this knowledge, it will lead them to Christ who will do all the work necessary to save us. We must enter into His "rest". In other words, we cease from our "works" (religion) with the knowledge that Christ will do all the works necessary to save us.

We are saved because it is God's will for it to happen and not our will. Our salvation can come to us no other way.

John 1:12–13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Joe
Last edited by FaithWillDo on Sat Dec 18, 2021 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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