JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #330]

Jesus is not God the Father (which we agree on) but God the Father's names do apply to Jesus.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

The glory Christ has is a gift from His Father. Whether or not Christ's glory is equal to the Father's glory is speculation since scripture (as far as I know) does not say either way. I suppose one could argue that since the Father created Christ and gave Christ His glory, then the glory of the Father is greater than the glory of Christ. I wouldn't argue against that understanding.

I guess our main disagreement on this subject is whether or not Christ is mankind's God. Christ is the God of the OT and is mankind's creator. Everything the Father did in this creation, He did through Jesus:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Because the Father did it that way, it makes Jesus our God. Thomas recognized this truth when He said:

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

But these verses below apply to Thomas' statement:

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Christ is a separate individual from the Father and is of lower authority than the Father. The Father created Christ and gave Him the FULL measure of His Spirit. This makes Christ one with His Father. Someday, all mankind will likewise be "one" with the Father just as Christ is one with His Father. This will happen because we too, will have the full measure of the Spirit of God.

John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Jesus is mankind's God and so is God the Father. Just remember that Jesus is of lower authority than God the Father.

Joe

[onewithhim]

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #331]

OK, Joe. I agree with the sum and substance of your post. Did you not say, however, in a past post, that Jesus is the "God" of the Old Testament? Maybe I misunderstood. IF you did say that, please explain the Scriptures I have cited:

Psalm 110:1,2
Isaiah 61:1,2 and Luke 4:18-21

(Check out the Bible version Young's Literal Translation, a non-JW rendering.)

.

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #332]

You asked:
OK, Joe. I agree with the sum and substance of your post. Did you not say, however, in a past post, that Jesus is the "God" of the Old Testament? Maybe I misunderstood. IF you did say that, please explain the Scriptures I have cited:

Psalm 110:1,2
Isaiah 61:1,2 and Luke 4:18-21

Yes, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Here is the first of your verses:

Psa 110: 1-2 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

I'm not sure why you believe this verse supports your belief that God the Father is the God of the OT in light of this verse below:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Father is the cause of all things happening but He did His work THROUGH Jesus to accomplish His work. Your beliefs are contradicted by 1Cor 8:6.

Here is what your verse is teaching:
Jesus is the "my Lord" of the verse who is also David's Lord. Jesus is also the "rod of thy strength out of Zion". God the Father sent a Rod of Iron (Jesus) into this world for a purpose. This is the purpose:

Psa 2: 6-9 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

Jesus, the rod of Iron, will destroy mankind's old vessel and make us into a new vessel that seemed good for Him (Jesus) to make:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jesus is the Potter and He is the one who created Adam and Eve and He will be the one who converts us into the new vessel. Jesus does this work by the power and authority of His Father. But the Father was not the one who did the actual work, it was Jesus. This is what it means when 1Cor 8:6 says that the Father is the cause of all things but that He accomplished His work through Jesus.

Jer 18:4 is speaking of conversion. Our created spiritual state will be destroyed by Jesus who will then give us a new spiritual state governed by the Holy Spirit. Upon our conversion, which occurs at the second coming of Christ when Christ gives a person the Latter Rain of the Spirit, we will be changed from being a child of the Devil to being a child of God.

When Jesus came in the flesh, He was spiritually perfect, governed by the full measure of God's Spirit. Though He was in a body of flesh, He never became carnally minded and never sinned as mankind does. The "marred" vessel the verse is speaking of is our weak spiritual state we are born with. It is this weak spiritual state that allows our body of flesh to control us. Because of that weakness, we become carnally minded and sinful. Adam and Eve were created in this weak spiritual state and quickly become carnally minded. This is why Eve sinned. She was not created spiritually perfect. She was marred and displayed her carnal mindedness before she ever sinned:

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

With that said though, she was created perfect for God's purpose which is to create new children who know the difference between good and evil. To give mankind this knowledge, God created mankind in such a way to cause us to sin and become evil. Then when God's purpose of evil is fulfilled within each of us, He uses Christ (the Rod of Iron) to convert us into His children. When Christ has finished His work at the end of the final age, all mankind will be children of God.

Here are your second and third verses:
Isa 61: 1-2 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

Luke 4: 18-21 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Again, I'm not sure why you believe these verses teach that God the Father is the God of the Old Testament. They do support the truth that God the Father is the God of Jesus which is what the body of scripture teaches. But in the verses you quoted, they say nothing about whether God the Father or Jesus is the God of the Old Testament.

Your verses are basically saying the same thing as the first verse you quoted. Christ was sent by the Father with the full measure of the Father's Spirit to be the Savior of mankind. The "day of vengeance" is speaking about the Day of the Lord when Christ comes to each of us to convert us. This is a day of destruction as well as a day of new birth.

This "day" is what Christ is teaching about in the verse below:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a spiritual “symbol” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture – we must compare spiritual with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From this example, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of their carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents their new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of conversion (salvation) is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword/Christ).

Spiritual understanding of scripture is further explained and expanded by 1Cor 2:13, Isa 28: 10-12 and Psa 119:160.

1Cor 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

When a Called Out believer cannot understand the Word of God, their lack of understanding will cause them to “fall backward and be broken”. So what does to “fall backward and be broken” actually mean? This is the same as to “fall away” (Heb 6:4-6) and it means to return to one’s own attempt to be acceptable to God through their own works. This is the sin that leads to death (1John 5:16).

God’s Truth is also presented to us in bits and pieces, which means we must put those pieces together to see the truth:

Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.

Again, to correctly understand scripture, it must be understood spiritually. For this type of understanding to occur, we must first understand that the words used in scripture do not carry the same meaning as taught by man’s wisdom (1Cor 2:13). Christ’s words are spirit and we are told to understand their spiritual meaning by comparing them with the same spiritual words used elsewhere in scripture. We must compare spiritual with spiritual. We are to also keep in mind that “the sum of God’s Word is truth.

Have you ever wondered why there are so many different denominational churches in the world? The answer lies in the truth I have presented above.

You may be asking yourself why God made His Word so difficult to understand. I can assure you that He did not do it by mistake. God is purposely concealing Himself from this world so that He can reveal Himself to each individual at a time of His choosing.

Matt 13:10-11 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you (the Elect) to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them (those not Chosen) it is not given.

In scripture, the knowledge of God (which is fully found in Christ) is symbolized by Treasure.

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.

For most people, God has not chosen to reveal Himself to them at this time. So for them, He remains “hidden” Treasure. However, that does not mean that He will forget them and forever remain hidden from their eyes. Scripture promises us that will not be the case.

1Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

1Cor 15: 22-23 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

During this present age, Christ is ONLY gathering in the First-fruits of His Harvest. These First-fruits are also called the Chosen, the Elect, the Heirs, the Overcomers, the Bride or the Saints. The remaining harvest of mankind will come later in the final age which God established from the beginning of creation. Contrary to popular belief, Christ is NOT working to save all mankind during this present age. He is only appearing (revealing Himself) to those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8 & Eph 1:11). We are totally dependent upon Christ for our salvation, even the timing of it. We cannot “choose” ourselves to be one of His “chosen”. Christ alone is the One who calls us, chooses us and empowers us to remain faithful unto the end. It is all His work. To claim otherwise, only proves that we have “fallen away” and are attempting to be acceptable to Christ through our own “works”.

For those who have presently been given “eyes that can see” and “ears that can hear”, Christ is appearing to them and revealing Himself. They are finding great treasure!

Joe

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #332]

You asked:
OK, Joe. I agree with the sum and substance of your post. Did you not say, however, in a past post, that Jesus is the "God" of the Old Testament? Maybe I misunderstood. IF you did say that, please explain the Scriptures I have cited:

Psalm 110:1,2
Isaiah 61:1,2 and Luke 4:18-21

Yes, Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. Here is the first of your verses:

Psa 110: 1-2 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool. The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

I'm not sure why you believe this verse supports your belief that God the Father is the God of the OT in light of this verse below:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

God the Father is the cause of all things happening but He did His work THROUGH Jesus to accomplish His work. Your beliefs are contradicted by 1Cor 8:6.

Do you not know that wherever the word "LORD" appears in all uppercase letters, that is where the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) appears in the original Hebrew text, and that the Tetragrammaton is popularly translated as "Jehovah" (the Father and God of Jesus)? This can be seen in the KJV in four places (why they just chose four out of 7,000 is a good question), one being Psalm 83:18, and it would be wise to consult Young's Literal Translation and the American Standard Bible (not the New American Standard) and the Divine Name King James Version as just three examples, to see where the Divine Name should be.

Therefore, Psalm 110:1 should read: "The affirmation of JEHOVAH to my Lord: 'Sit at my right hand, til I make thine enemies thy footstool.'"

This is Jehovah, the Father, speaking to the Messiah (David's Lord). My beliefs are reaffirmed through I Corinthians 8:6.

.

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #334]

Go back and re-read what I posted. What you just stated is exactly the way I explained your verses. But your conclusions of what those verses mean do not support your beliefs.

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Father is the cause of all things that happen BUT He did those same "all things" through/by Jesus. Jesus is the one who walked and talked with Adam and Eve. As I pointed out earlier, no man has ever heard the voice of the Father so it has to have been Jesus in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Jesus also has to be the "I am" who spoke with Moses. Jesus is also the one who spoke with Abraham and wrestled with Jacob. God the Father never communicated or dealt directly with the OT fathers and remained hidden from them. God the Father did all His work through/by Jesus.

You are believing what you have been taught by man instead of letting scripture tell you what to believe. This whole creation is Christ's because the Father gave it to Him. Salvation only comes through Christ. Once all mankind is "in Christ", Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and God will then be "all in all".

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


2Cor 6:17-18 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Do you believe that Jesus is our creator, God and Father? The scriptures say Jesus is because God the Father bestowed that honor on Him.

Joe

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #334]

Go back and re-read what I posted. What you just stated is exactly the way I explained your verses. But your conclusions of what those verses mean do not support your beliefs.

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

The Father is the cause of all things that happen BUT He did those same "all things" through/by Jesus. Jesus is the one who walked and talked with Adam and Eve. As I pointed out earlier, no man has ever heard the voice of the Father so it has to have been Jesus in the Garden with Adam and Eve. Jesus also has to be the "I am" who spoke with Moses. Jesus is also the one who spoke with Abraham and wrestled with Jacob. God the Father never communicated or dealt directly with the OT fathers and remained hidden from them. God the Father did all His work through/by Jesus.

You are believing what you have been taught by man instead of letting scripture tell you what to believe. This whole creation is Christ's because the Father gave it to Him. Salvation only comes through Christ. Once all mankind is "in Christ", Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and God will then be "all in all".

I believe what I have learned from the scriptures themselves. I have done research and delved deeply into the things portrayed in the scriptures. I do not believe what men have told me unless I can corroborate it for myself. All those verses you quote DO support my beliefs, and it's odd that you would say that I don't know what I am believing.

Jesus spoke with Moses, I agree. But he wasn't the "I Am" or the "I Will." He was passing along what Jehovah, the Father, wanted Moses to know about Him---Jehovah. Everything Jesus said was revealing the Father's will, not his own, and the Father's identity, not his own.

.

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #336]

Yes, all you said about Moses and "I am" is true but you are still taking away the glory that was given to Jesus by the Father by not accepting Jesus as your God. Jesus is your God, Father and creator. Everything about this creation is in the hands of Jesus. Jesus is the only one who is without sin and who has a relationship with His Father. For us to have that same relationship, we must be "in Christ". This restored relationship happens only by the work of Jesus "within" us. Jesus is truly our God just as Thomas declared.

You earlier said you believed that God is a title. Why won't you accept that Jesus is mankind's God, just as God the Father is Jesus' God? Did Thomas have it wrong?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

How about what John said?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus is the Word and He was with God the Father in the beginning of this creation. Jesus would have to be with the Father in the beginning because Jesus is mankind's creator. The verse goes on to say that Jesus is also God. He is not the supreme God (God the Father) BUT He is mankind's God nonetheless. Without Jesus, we would not know of the Father who is the supreme God. All knowledge mankind has been given about the Father comes from knowing Jesus since Jesus is the only one who interacts with mankind.

As for studying and understanding scripture, I will very briefly explain what scripture says about this subject. For a person to understand, they must be given the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit by Christ before their spiritual blindness is healed. All mankind is born spiritually blind and cannot know God:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul was not exaggerating in the verse above. Unless Christ comes to us and changes us from "within" by baptizing us with the Spirit, we cannot know God and therefore cannot know Christ. After Christ comes to us and gives us BOTH the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit, we can then start receiving the truth of God's Word. We are at the mercy of Christ to "unveil" Himself (He is the Word of God) to us. None of us are worthy or could ever do anything that would make us worthy to receive that gift. But Christ gives us that gift anyway solely because of His Grace.

There is a pathway that Christ causes His First Fruits to follow in order to be saved. They are called and chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the only ones who will complete the pathway in this age. All others will die in their sins.

This pathway was "typed" by the Nation of Israel when they were afraid to enter the Promised Land (salvation) after they learned there were "giants" in the land. Only Caleb and Joshua believed those giants could be defeated because they had faith in God to defeat them. For this reason, the Nation of Israel wandered in the wilderness (place where Satan dwells) for 40 years until they all died except for Caleb and Joshua (types of the First Fruits) who lived to cross over the Jordan River (types the Latter Rain baptism) into the Promised Land.

The pathway to salvation in which the Nation of Israel "typed" for us is happening now in this present age.

Here is the spiritual fulfillment of the pathway:

In this age, most of mankind will never have a visitation from Christ where He gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit. Without that gift, they will remain unbelievers. They have no choice in the matter.

For "many" however, Christ will come to them and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road). From that earnest amount, we accept Jesus as our Lord but do not have the spiritual vision to see Him for ourselves. Because we remain spiritually blind, we rely on others to teach us what scripture says. However, those who teach us are also spiritually blind and only think they understand the truth. This is what Christ was speaking about when He said the blind lead the blind. Because of the spiritual blindness of those who are "called out" (the church), there are around 2000 different denominations/sects in the world, each with their own version of the truth. They are eating the leaven bread Jesus mentioned in this one verse parable:

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is our time of being "called out from the world". We are called to be saints BUT in order to actually be saints, we must also be chosen by Christ from the foundation of the world. If we are chosen, Christ will come to us a second time and give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This event is also called the baptism of the Spirit or the second coming of Christ. The Latter Rain is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being blind in Damascus for three days. It is only when a person receives the Latter Rain that they are saved and can start spiritually maturing into a son of God. It all happens solely because of the Grace of God the Father which is manifested in Christ. Christ is the Grace of God and it is His work within us that saves us. We only need to have faith (faith that He gave us) that Christ will do all the work necessary to defeat the giants within us.

But since God loves the world and is not willing that any should perish, the rest of mankind who died in their sins will be resurrected to judgment and will later be saved at the end of that final age. Then God the Father will be "all in all" after Christ delivers up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father which now contains all mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that Jesus truly is the Savior of the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Does any of what I presented above make any sense to you?

Joe

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #336]

Yes, all you said about Moses and "I am" is true but you are still taking away the glory that was given to Jesus by the Father by not accepting Jesus as your God. Jesus is your God, Father and creator. Everything about this creation is in the hands of Jesus. Jesus is the only one who is without sin and who has a relationship with His Father. For us to have that same relationship, we must be "in Christ". This restored relationship happens only by the work of Jesus "within" us. Jesus is truly our God just as Thomas declared.

You earlier said you believed that God is a title. Why won't you accept that Jesus is mankind's God, just as God the Father is Jesus' God? Did Thomas have it wrong?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

How about what John said?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jesus is the Word and He was with God the Father in the beginning of this creation. Jesus would have to be with the Father in the beginning because Jesus is mankind's creator. The verse goes on to say that Jesus is also God. He is not the supreme God (God the Father) BUT He is mankind's God nonetheless. Without Jesus, we would not know of the Father who is the supreme God. All knowledge mankind has been given about the Father comes from knowing Jesus since Jesus is the only one who interacts with mankind.

As for studying and understanding scripture, I will very briefly explain what scripture says about this subject. For a person to understand, they must be given the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit by Christ before their spiritual blindness is healed. All mankind is born spiritually blind and cannot know God:

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul was not exaggerating in the verse above. Unless Christ comes to us and changes us from "within" by baptizing us with the Spirit, we cannot know God and therefore cannot know Christ. After Christ comes to us and gives us BOTH the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit, we can then start receiving the truth of God's Word. We are at the mercy of Christ to "unveil" Himself (He is the Word of God) to us. None of us are worthy or could ever do anything that would make us worthy to receive that gift. But Christ gives us that gift anyway solely because of His Grace.

There is a pathway that Christ causes His First Fruits to follow in order to be saved. They are called and chosen from the foundation of the world. They are the only ones who will complete the pathway in this age. All others will die in their sins.

This pathway was "typed" by the Nation of Israel when they were afraid to enter the Promised Land (salvation) after they learned there were "giants" in the land. Only Caleb and Joshua believed those giants could be defeated because they had faith in God to defeat them. For this reason, the Nation of Israel wandered in the wilderness (place where Satan dwells) for 40 years until they all died except for Caleb and Joshua (types of the First Fruits) who lived to cross over the Jordan River (types the Latter Rain baptism) into the Promised Land.

The pathway to salvation in which the Nation of Israel "typed" for us is happening now in this present age.

Here is the spiritual fulfillment of the pathway:

In this age, most of mankind will never have a visitation from Christ where He gives a person the Early Rain of the Spirit. Without that gift, they will remain unbelievers. They have no choice in the matter.

For "many" however, Christ will come to them and give them the Early Rain of the Spirit (what Paul received on the Damascus Road). From that earnest amount, we accept Jesus as our Lord but do not have the spiritual vision to see Him for ourselves. Because we remain spiritually blind, we rely on others to teach us what scripture says. However, those who teach us are also spiritually blind and only think they understand the truth. This is what Christ was speaking about when He said the blind lead the blind. Because of the spiritual blindness of those who are "called out" (the church), there are around 2000 different denominations/sects in the world, each with their own version of the truth. They are eating the leaven bread Jesus mentioned in this one verse parable:

Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

The Early Rain of the Spirit is our time of being "called out from the world". We are called to be saints BUT in order to actually be saints, we must also be chosen by Christ from the foundation of the world. If we are chosen, Christ will come to us a second time and give us the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This event is also called the baptism of the Spirit or the second coming of Christ. The Latter Rain is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being blind in Damascus for three days. It is only when a person receives the Latter Rain that they are saved and can start spiritually maturing into a son of God. It all happens solely because of the Grace of God the Father which is manifested in Christ. Christ is the Grace of God and it is His work within us that saves us. We only need to have faith (faith that He gave us) that Christ will do all the work necessary to defeat the giants within us.

But since God loves the world and is not willing that any should perish, the rest of mankind who died in their sins will be resurrected to judgment and will later be saved at the end of that final age. Then God the Father will be "all in all" after Christ delivers up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father which now contains all mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that Jesus truly is the Savior of the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Does any of what I presented above make any sense to you?

Joe

I am afraid it only "makes sense", to those without eyes to see or ears to hear (Matthew 13:13), which would be the "wicked"/lawless, those who "commit lawlessness "(Matthew 13:39-50 & Daniel 12:10), who follow the message of the devil, the tare seed, by way of his false prophets, who come as sheep in wolves clothing (Matthew 7:13-15), the "foremost" being the "foremost sinner", Paul. And it is little children who are led astray, and whose false teachers will suffer the consequences, and wish they had not been born. (Matthew 18:6). As for "Christ", he apparently sits in heaven, and he sent the Comforter in his place. It is by way of the anointing of the Spirit of God, that one is taught (1 John 2:27). It is apparently the late rain, wind, and floods which will wash away the foundation of the daughters of Babylon (Matthew 7:27), which are founded on the supposed message of the 2 shepherds of Zechariah 11:7, who were used to "pasture the flock doomed for slaughter", the "Christian" churches. Those two shepherds were Peter, the "worthless shepherd" (Zechariah 11:17), and Paul, the shepherd who was called "Favor", because of his false gospel of "Grace". The "Lord God" will send My servant David, to be "king", ruling over a combined Judah and Ephraim/Israel, who are to live on the land given to Jacob, after the Lord God judges between the sheep (Ezekiel 34 & 37). The "Word of God" will rule with a "rod of iron", and if the nations/Gentiles do not keep the feast of Booths, there will be no rain for them (Zechariah 14:17). As for the Gentile (nations) survivors of Jacob's distress, the great tribulation, they will confess that "their fathers had inherited nothing but falsehood" (Jeremiah 16:19), and will grab onto the hem of a Jew, and say let us go with you, for God is with you. (Zechariah 8:23). The pouring out of the Spirit along with wonders, will be a sign of the coming of the "day of the LORD" (Joel 2:28-32). There will be "survivors" from Jerusalem and Mount Zion (Joel 2:32), your saved, but they only will survive because the time of the "great tribulation" will be "cut short" (Matthew 24:22). And no one worships on God's mountain, Mount Zion, unless they keep his covenant/Law and his Sabbath (Isaiah 56:6). As for Romans 3, written by some unknown guy named Tertius, according to Romans, it is a clip from Psalms 14, with respect to "The fool has said in his heart, 'there is no God", and the "workers of wickedness.... who eat up My people". As for what happens after the millennium, when the devil and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, well, those not written in the book of life will be thrown there as well (Revelation 20:15).

[FaithWillDo]

Dear 2ndpillar2,
You are still seeing Jesus in the flesh. In other words, your understanding of Christ is still carnal and is of this world. The sun and the moon are still giving you your light (truth). When Christ comes to a person with the Latter Rain (second coming), He turns the moon to blood and darkens the sun for them. It is at this point that the individual stops receiving their truth from the physical world and starts receiving it directly from Christ.

Here is where Christ speaks about understanding His Word:

Mark 8:15-21 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on spiritual language - His language. At this point in time (before Pentecost), the disciples have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and were spiritually blind. They simply could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22-25 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, He goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in "type" by healing a blind man. This "type" is the same "type" which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verses 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. The “spit” (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This is the same time when an unbeliever is "called out from the world" and becomes a Christian. After Christ asks him what he could see, the blind man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for Called Out believers of which the blind man is now one. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted. This “first healing” of the blind man reflects our spiritual condition when we first enter the Church. At that time, we are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. Peter says this condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 4:19 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again but this time, Christ has the man “look up”. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit (second coming of Christ) when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents this spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we know that the blind man is a “type” of a Called and Chosen believer.

Here is where Christ teaches about what happens to every believer upon receiving the EARLY Rain of the Spirit (being called out, the church):

Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

Unclean (evil) spirits represent Satan's false truth. Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number EIGHT spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first". Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin.

After the new believer devolves into a Man of Sin, their deadly head wound that came from the sword of Christ at the time of the Early Rain is healed. The blow by the Sword of Christ was intended to slay their carnal nature (Old man) but because of their spiritual blindness and Satan’s deceptions, the wound is healed and their Old Man continues to live.

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

As a result, they are still represented by the Seven-Headed Beast of Revelation. In case you are unaware, the Seven Headed Beast is a symbol for mankind in our spiritually flawed and carnally minded condition. After our deadly head wound is healed, we have truly "fallen away" and become a Man of Sin who follows the ways of Satan instead of Christ. We are trying to serve two masters. This is the one and only sin (works) that leads to our spiritual death (1John 5:16). From this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance (Heb 6:4-6). It is for this reason that Christ must come to us a second time if we are going to be saved in this age. When He comes (Day of the Lord), Christ brings the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Baptism of the Holy Spirit), which is what the Apostles received on the Day of Pentecost and what Paul received after being in Damascus for three days.

The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief system to justify why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why we are not. We falsely believe that we must be wiser or smarter or simply less evil than those who reject Christ. And because of this belief, we take credit for making the right "choice" to accept Christ. But in truth, the credit is not ours. It was Christ's work within us that caused us to accept Him as "Lord". In our spiritually flawed and carnally minded condition we have from birth, no man will even seek to know God (Rom 3:10-11, Rom 8:7), much less accept Him as Lord.
Scripture clearly says that unless Christ gives us the Holy Spirit, we cannot call Him “Lord”.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

Only after Christ comes to us and gives us the Early Rain of the Spirit can we call Christ “Lord”. Paul’s Damascus Road experience is the part of the “pattern” (1Tim 1:16) whereby we all must follow in order to be “called out from the world”. Christ came to Paul on the Damascus Road, uninvited by Paul, and gave Paul the Early Rain. Paul had no choice in the matter as to whether to accept the Spirit or to reject the Spirit. The Spirit was given to Him and after it was, Paul fell to his knees and called Christ “Lord”.

After a Called Out believer has “fallen away” and is no longer saved, Christ must come to them a second time with the Latter Rain of the Spirit (Baptism of the Holy Spirit). If He doesn't, they will die in their sins and receive their “portion” with the unbelievers. If the Called Out believer is one of the “few” (Mat 22:14) and has been "chosen from the foundation of the world", Christ will come to them a second time. And when He comes, He brings salvation with Him.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Christ “appeared” the first time in the flesh and took away the sins of the world on the cross. When He comes to an unbeliever with the Early Rain, He does not “appear” to them but remains hidden from their understanding. The Early Rain event is not an “appearance”, it is a visitation. When Christ comes to a Called Out believer with the Latter Rain, He “appears” to them at this time. When He comes, He fully heals their spiritual blindness and the Light of His appearing will destroy the Man of Sin whom they have become. It is at this point when the new child of God is born.

As for your comments on "lawlessness", Christ spoke about those who remain lawless in Mat 7:21-23. His comments were addressed to EARLY Rain believers who still mix their own "works" with Faith. Because they still try to serve two masters, they remain under Law. And because they cannot follow the whole law, they are said to practice "lawlessness".

Salvation only comes by faith alone in Christ, knowing that Christ will do all the work of saving us. His work is spiritual work within our hearts and minds. Until He does that work, we cannot accept Him as Lord or have faith in Him. We must have patience and wait on the Lord to complete His work within each of us. And He does that work at the time He has chosen. We do not get to choose the timing of our salvation.

Here is what James said considering patience and the Early and Latter Rain:

Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the EARLY and LATTER rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

James says a lot in these two verses and its meaning is hidden in spiritual language.

Christ is the Husbandman who is a farmer. The Precious Fruit of the Earth is the New Man in Christ who is to be harvested from the Earth. The Earth represents the carnal & sinful world. The farmer “hath long patience for it” because birthing many new Sons of God is a long process and is now just getting started with the harvest of the First-Fruits in this present age.

Christ even said:
Luke 12:49 I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

“Fire” is a spiritual term for the judgment of God. Without His judgment, no one would be saved. In the above verse, Christ longs to start that process of judgment upon mankind (The Elect first, then all others in the final age) but the time was not yet at hand. Since before the creation began, Christ has been waiting patiently for that day - the Day of the Lord. It is no wonder that “patience” is one of the fruits of the Spirit.

At the end of verse 7, James says that the growing season for Christ’s harvest of mankind starts with the Early Rain. It is at this point in time that a new believer will enter the Church. The Early Rain represents the receiving of the Holy Spirit. However, the “gifts” accompanying Early Rain of the Spirit are not sufficient for us to grow to maturity and produce fruit. We also need the Latter Rain which occurs when Christ “appears again” and baptizes us with His Spirit. After the Baptism of the Spirit, we finally have the ability to see Christ and to know the Truth. The sanctification process can then start so that we can grow to maturity and produce fruit.

James’ main purpose for writing these two verses is to tell us to have “patience” because the creation of a Son of God takes time and does not happen until a person receives the Early and Latter rain of the Spirit.

Have you ever thought about the “meaning of life” or the reason why you exist? Most people do. The answer is simple. We are here to be born into the family of God. Everything that happens within God’s creation is the way He has chosen to produce His offspring. The birth of His children is not some experiment with God nor is it a battle with Satan and it certainly does not end with the eternal torment in hell for most of mankind. To believe any of those things is to bring God down to the level of a man. God’s plan for us is perfect and His love does not fail. Spiritually speaking, Christ is giving birth to His children through His wife (carnal mankind). Their offspring are the children of God. But the woman after she was first Called by Christ (Early Rain) committed adultery with Satan and fell away. To restore the marriage, Christ comes to us a second time (Latter Rain). At His second coming, Christ destroys the Man of Sin whom we have become and successfully gives birth to the New Man in Christ. These events all happen spiritually within us. Christ has a time and plan for every person who has ever lived to be “born again”. In this present age, Christ is ONLY harvesting the First Fruits of His harvest. But in the final age, the full crop of God’s children will be brought into the barn (Kingdom of Heaven) and ALL mankind will be saved.

May the Lord give you eyes that can see!
Joe

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #336]

Yes, all you said about Moses and "I am" is true but you are still taking away the glory that was given to Jesus by the Father by not accepting Jesus as your God. Jesus is your God, Father and creator. Everything about this creation is in the hands of Jesus. Jesus is the only one who is without sin and who has a relationship with His Father. For us to have that same relationship, we must be "in Christ". This restored relationship happens only by the work of Jesus "within" us. Jesus is truly our God just as Thomas declared.

You earlier said you believed that God is a title. Why won't you accept that Jesus is mankind's God, just as God the Father is Jesus' God? Did Thomas have it wrong?

John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

How about what John said?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The title "god" actually means "an important and powerful individual." That is true of Jesus. But THE God and Jesus are differentiated in John 1:1. The Word was WITH THE God, and the Word was an important and powerful individual. THE God is only Jehovah. Jesus is not the Most High (see Psalm 83:18, KJV).

"The Word was God" should have a small "g" as there were no uppercase letters in Greek. Greeks back then, and probably today as well, could tell when somebody or some thing was the only one by using the article "the." "The Word was God" does not have any article, therefore this "god" is not the most high God. In English, where the rules of translation are different than in Greek, we have to put "a" before "god" in the phrase "the Word was god." Greek speakers know this, and can be seen in honest interlinear volumes such as The Emphatic Diaglott by Benjamin Wilson.

So...John 1:1 is responsibly translated as "the word was with the god and the word was a god," which in English we give upper case "G"s to "god" when referring to the Most High.