Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

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Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #1

Post by Eloi »

Paul said:

1 Cor. 15:50 But I tell you this, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s Kingdom, nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Jesus is in God's kingdom right now. That region is described in this passage of the Bible:

Heb. 12:18 For you have not approached something that can be felt and that has been set aflame with fire, and a dark cloud and thick darkness and a storm, 19 and the blast of a trumpet and the voice speaking words, which on hearing, the people begged that nothing further should be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command: “If even a beast touches the mountain, it must be stoned.” 21 Also, the display was so terrifying that Moses said: “I am afraid and trembling.” 22 But you have approached a Mount Zion and a city of the living God, heavenly Jerusalem, and myriads of angels 23 in general assembly, and the congregation of the firstborn who have been enrolled in the heavens, and God the Judge of all, and the spiritual lives of righteous ones who have been made perfect, 24 and Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and the sprinkled blood, which speaks in a better way than Abel’s blood.

It is a region where only spirit beings can live, not physical beings of flesh and bones. It is obvious, since beings of flesh and bones are directly connected with physical needs that can only be satisfied in the physical environment where we were placed when we were created. There are at least five passages in the Scriptures which teach us that Jesus is in a spirit body right now in heaven:

1 Tim. 3:16 Indeed, the sacred secret of this godly devotion is admittedly great: ‘He was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, appeared to angels, was preached about among nations, was believed upon in the world, was received up in glory.’

Heb. 9:14 how much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works so that we may render sacred service to the living God?

1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 However, what is spiritual is not first. What is physical is first, and afterward what is spiritual. 47 The first man is from the earth and made of dust; the second man is from heaven. 48 Like the one made of dust, so too are those made of dust; and like the heavenly one, so too are those who are heavenly. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we will bear also the image of the heavenly one.

2 Cor. 5:16 So from now on we know no man from a fleshly viewpoint. Even if we once knew Christ according to the flesh, we certainly no longer know him in that way.

1 Pet. 3:18 For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit ...

Why do theologians and religious leaders of Christendom continue to falsely teach their apprentices that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones? ... maybe a two meters tall body? Has his body gases inside? Does it need liquid like humans on earth to maintain his internal physical composition?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #21

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:37 pm
Replying to Sheila D, onewithhim wrote: Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:21 pm
If we all are going to be spirit persons, as you apparently believe, what do the scriptures mean that say that the righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever?

"The righteous will possess the earth and they will live forever on it." (Psalm 37:29)

The earth was made for physical human beings.
Scriptures stating that the righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever, prove that those righteous referred to are not humans -- as humans do not live forever.
We've already discussed this, and you must've been somewhere else. Humans were created to live forever, and the only reason we don't is because Adam rebelled and brought upon his offspring sin and death. If he had remained faithful, humans would live without sin and death.....their hope would be to live forever. Those who accept Jehovah's means of salvation---Jesus' sacrifice---and are here when Armageddon comes, will live forever as long as they remain faithful.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #22

Post by myth-one.com »

myth-one.com wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:37 pm Scriptures stating that the righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever, prove that those righteous referred to are not humans -- as humans do not live forever.
Onewithhim wrote:We've already discussed this, and you must've been somewhere else. Humans were created to live forever, and the only reason we don't is because Adam rebelled and brought upon his offspring sin and death. If he had remained faithful, humans would live without sin and death.....their hope would be to live forever. Those who accept Jehovah's means of salvation---Jesus' sacrifice---and are here when Armageddon comes, will live forever as long as they remain faithful.
Do you believe that Adam & Eve were created by God?

Do you believe that Adam & Eve died?

If your answer to both of those questions is yes, then there is no way that Adam & Eve were created to live forever.

Immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.
======================================================

If God created something to live forever, then it can never die.

A being created to live forever is not the same as a being created to live until such and such occurs.

If Adam & Eve died, then God did not create them as immortal.

If God creates an immortal being, even God cannot kill that being, because God cannot lie.

It's not that complicated.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #23

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Sat Dec 18, 2021 11:11 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Fri Dec 17, 2021 8:37 pm Scriptures stating that the righteous will inherit the earth and live on it forever, prove that those righteous referred to are not humans -- as humans do not live forever.
Onewithhim wrote:We've already discussed this, and you must've been somewhere else. Humans were created to live forever, and the only reason we don't is because Adam rebelled and brought upon his offspring sin and death. If he had remained faithful, humans would live without sin and death.....their hope would be to live forever. Those who accept Jehovah's means of salvation---Jesus' sacrifice---and are here when Armageddon comes, will live forever as long as they remain faithful.
Do you believe that Adam & Eve were created by God?

Do you believe that Adam & Eve died?

If your answer to both of those questions is yes, then there is no way that Adam & Eve were created to live forever.

Immortal: living forever; never dying or decaying.
======================================================

If God created something to live forever, then it can never die.

A being created to live forever is not the same as a being created to live until such and such occurs.

If Adam & Eve died, then God did not create them as immortal.

If God creates an immortal being, even God cannot kill that being, because God cannot lie.

It's not that complicated.
Yes I believe Adam and Eve were created by God, and yes they died. They died ONLY because they disobeyed a clear instruction to leave one tree alone, thus showing their rebellion against His authority.

God does not create immortal beings. Even Jesus was not created immortal. A person becomes immortal after they have proved their faithfulness even to death. Jesus was immortal after he was resurrected, and the Bible says that he was the ONLY individual that was immortal at that time (I Timothy 6:16). You insist on ignoring this fact.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #24

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:19 am Yes I believe Adam and Eve were created by God, and yes they died. They died ONLY because they disobeyed a clear instruction to leave one tree alone, thus showing their rebellion against His authority.
They died because the wages of sin is death. And yes, that one sin of eating the forbidden fruit sealed their fate.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:19 amGod does not create immortal beings.
Angels are immortal. Who created them -- if not God?
onewithhim wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:19 amEven Jesus was not created immortal.
That's correct. He was created as a mortal human.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:19 amA person becomes immortal after they have proved their faithfulness even to death.
No, a person (or human) becomes immortal when they are born again of the Spirit. At that time they become a spirit -- That which is born of the Spirit is spirit! To this date, exactly zero humans have been born again of the Spirit.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:19 amJesus was immortal after he was resurrected, . . .
Jesus was a man. No man is immortal. So Jesus was never immortal.

The Word is the immortal God. Jesus is The Word made flesh. They are not the same being.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Dec 20, 2021 1:19 am. . . and the Bible says that he was the ONLY individual that was immortal at that time (I Timothy 6:16). You insist on ignoring this fact.
What I ignore is your interpretation of that verse!
I Timothy 6:16 wrote:Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
This does mean that the man Jesus Christ was or had become immortal!

Jesus Christ is the only person who ever lived a sinless life under the Old Testament Covenant between man and God.

Thus, He is an heir under that Covenant. He is an heir to inherit everlasting life, or immortality!

It is His! He hath it "legally" under the Old Testament Covenant designed by God. It is His possession and cannot be taken away from Him, because God must abide by His covenants.

Jesus was a man, lived a sinless human life, and died His first appointed death. Thus, He has become the only qualified heir unto everlasting life under the original covenant between mankind and God.

He will receive His immortality when the Covenant is probated. The Covenant will be probated after the end of mankind's 6,000 year dominion over the earth.

But since His future inheritance of everlasting life belongs to Him, He can do whatever He desires with it.

Can you guess what He does with His inheritance?

Jesus offers His inheritance of everlasting life to all humans who believe in Him as their Savior from the wages of their sins! The New Testament Covenant was created to replace the Old Testament Covenant and reflected this new theology:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)
Under the New Covenant, salvation is no longer controlled by our works to fulfill all of God's laws.

Salvation is now a gift of God through Jesus Christ.

All we must do is believe in Him and accept His gift.

When we do that, our names are written in the Book of Life as inheritors of everlasting life, and we will be born again as immortal spiritual beings at or after the Second Coming.

This new covenant corrected the fault in the original Covenant.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #25

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #24]

Jesus said clearly: "The one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)

Enduring suggests exertion and some amount of effort. That is why our "works" are important. As James said: "Faith without works is dead." (See James chapter 2.)

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #26

Post by myth-one.com »

onewithhim wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:35 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #24]

Jesus said clearly: "The one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)

Enduring suggests exertion and some amount of effort. That is why our "works" are important. As James said: "Faith without works is dead." (See James chapter 2.)
.
The works of Christians are more important as a means of witnessing to nonbelievers and spreading the good news of the gospel to all the nations.

Good works and the pleasures they bring to the performer of those good works is a recruitment tool. Others should observe Christians and desire to be like them. Whatever He (or she) has, is what I want!

But the testimony which "Christians" who lie, cheat, steal, etc, is a detriment to Christianity.

Christians who have faith in Jesus as their Savior are commanded to spread the gospel to all nations.

The faith of Christians who do not perform works to accomplish this command, is dead in regards to fulfilling the Great Commission of spreading the good news.

Although all cannot go to all nations, we can make it possible to send others. In addition, we can feed, clothe, house, visit, and heal people in need. Such works are rewarding personally, and also to Christianity. When we do so, we "see" Jesus:
Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. (Matthew 25:40)
=============================================================

But works no longer save people.

Can you name a work (other than belief or faith in Jesus) which will save anyone from the second death?

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #27

Post by historia »

I suppose we should give proper consideration to the traditional Christian view.

As usual, the Catechism provides a succinct summary:
CCC 645-46 wrote:
By means of touch and the sharing of a meal, the risen Jesus establishes direct contact with his disciples. He invites them in this way to recognize that he is not a ghost and above all to verify that the risen body in which he appears to them is the same body that had been tortured and crucified, for it still bears the traces of his Passion (Cf. Lk 24:30, 39-40, 41-43; Jn 20:20, 27; 21:9, 13-15).

Yet at the same time this authentic, real body possesses the new properties of a glorious body: not limited by space and time but able to be present how and when he wills; for Christ's humanity can no longer be confined to earth, and belongs henceforth only to the Father's divine realm (Cf. Mt 28:9, 16-17; Lk 24:15, 36; Jn 20:14, 17, 19, 26; 21:4).

For this reason too the risen Jesus enjoys the sovereign freedom of appearing as he wishes: in the guise of a gardener or in other forms familiar to his disciples, precisely to awaken their faith (Cf. Mk 16:12; Jn 20:14-16; 21:4, 7).

Christ's Resurrection was not a return to earthly life, as was the case with the raisings from the dead that he had performed before Easter: Jairus' daughter, the young man of Naim, Lazarus. These actions were miraculous events, but the persons miraculously raised returned by Jesus' power to ordinary earthly life. At some particular moment they would die again. Christ's Resurrection is essentially different. In his risen body he passes from the state of death to another life beyond time and space. At Jesus' Resurrection his body is filled with the power of the Holy Spirit: he shares the divine life in his glorious state, so that St. Paul can say that Christ is "the man of heaven" (Cf. 1 Cor 15:35-50).
The key biblical passage here is surely Luke 24:39-40:
Luke 24:39-40 wrote:
[Jesus said,] "See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #28

Post by historia »

Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 am
Why do theologians and religious leaders . . . teach . . . that Jesus lives in heaven with a body of flesh and bones?
Because this has been the teaching of Christians from very early on.

As noted above, Christians believe that Christ's body has been transformed into a glorious body that possess new attributes that allow it to live in heaven, in a way that the natural human body on its own could not.

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #29

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Dec 23, 2021 11:08 am
onewithhim wrote: Wed Dec 22, 2021 4:35 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #24]

Jesus said clearly: "The one who endures to the end is the one who will be saved." (Matthew 24:13)

Enduring suggests exertion and some amount of effort. That is why our "works" are important. As James said: "Faith without works is dead." (See James chapter 2.)
.
The works of Christians are more important as a means of witnessing to nonbelievers and spreading the good news of the gospel to all the nations.

Good works and the pleasures they bring to the performer of those good works is a recruitment tool. Others should observe Christians and desire to be like them. Whatever He (or she) has, is what I want!
This is true. And every Christian must do these works. That is in our name: Jehovah's Witnesses. And being His witnesses, we also witness about the Son, Jesus Christ, who died so that we may live forever.

Can I name any work that would save a person without belief in Jesus' sacrifice? NO. We must accept what he did for us and then align ourselves with his example.

"To this course you were called, because even Christ suffered for you, leaving a model for you to follow his steps closely." (I Peter 2:21)

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Re: Christendom inconsistent beliefs #4: Christ, flesh and bones in heaven?

Post #30

Post by historia »

In addition to Luke 24:39-40 (see post #27), it seems to me the other key biblical passage on this topic is 1 Corinthians 15:35-53.

A portion of that text was cited in the OP. Here it is again, with a slight modification:
Eloi wrote: Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:40 am
1 Cor. 15:44 It is sown a psychikos body; it is raised up a pneumatikos body. If there is a psychikos body, there is also a pneumatikos one. 45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a psyche.” The last Adam became a life-giving pneuma.
The key terms Paul employs here are psychikos and pneumatikos. The root words for those terms are psyche (soul) and pneuma (spirit), respectively, which Paul also employs here.

Paul contrasts these same terms earlier in 1 Corinthians:
1 Cor. 2:13 wrote:
The natural (psychikos) person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual (pneumatikos) person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.
When Paul talks about the "spiritual" person here, obviously he doesn't mean a person made out of spirit. He means a person oriented toward the Spirit of God, in contrast to the "natural" person, who is oriented towards his or her own human nature.

Likewise, when Paul talks of the "spiritual" body in 15:44, he is not talking about a body made out of spirit. If pneumatikos here means made of out "spirit" (pneuma), then, in order to be consistent, we have to interpret the psychikos body as one made out of "soul" (psyche). But that makes no sense.

Rather, Paul here is contrasting a natural body (one that is perishable, dishonorable, weak) with what we might call a super-natural body (one that is imperishable, glorious, powerful). He is contrasting a body animated by the soul (psyche) with one animated by the Spirit (pneuma) (of God). And like any "body" we should understand the latter as something physical.

This is reinforced a few verses later (v. 53) when Paul says:
1 Cor. 15:53 wrote:
For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
"Putting on" (endysasthai) here strongly suggests something added to the perishable, mortal body. Whereas the interpretation that others in this thread have advanced that Christ's body was dissolved and he was re-created as a spirit does not sound at all like what Paul is describing here.

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