The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[JehovahsWitness]

REVELATION 14:4

These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES do not hold that to be speaking of literally; we believe practically everything in the book of Revelation is symbolic. They did not "defile themselves with women" in the sense that, male or female they remained true to Christ's teachings and their being "virgins " we take to mean the remained loyal to their heavenly calling as Christs bride. Note the following quotation from the JW commentaire un Revelation...

"They have avoided spiritual adultery with worldly politics and with false religion. (James 4:4; Revelation 17:5) As the betrothed bride of Christ, they have kept themselves pure, without a blemish in among "a crooked and twisted generation" Philippians 2:15" - re 29 p. 202 par 12

JW









Why do Jehovah's Witnesses depict the 144,000 as white men?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 721#879721

[onewithhim]

[...]I am completely unconcerned you are not persuaded and have no intention to change that.

Then why bother to answer?
"The Bible indicates that 144,000 people will be resurrected to heavenly life. (Revelation 7:4) "
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Because being familiar with their publications and organisation of Jehovahs Witnrsses for over 40 years, I wanted to contribute my views on their theology in line with the OP. The Jehovahs Witnesses believe that the number 144,000 in revelation refers to the number of people that go to heaven.

There are currently about 7.5 billion people alive on Earth and about 107 billion who once lived on Earth.
That works out to 1 person going to heaven for every 743,056 people.

There are about 8.7 million JW's. Even if ONLY JW's go to heaven, they've got about of 1.6% chance of making it... about 1 JW in 60
A religion that proclaims few of it's members are going to heaven does not present much appeal.

Or...
You might consider a less literal interpretation. This JW claim makes as much sense as Charles Haze Russell's "End of the Harvest [world]" prediction, that it would end in 1878.

Or was it 1881? 1914? 1918? 1925?

Haven't we noticed that the Bible speaks of godly people living ON EARTH forever? The billions of people who ever lived will be given the chance to, after being brought back from death, live on the planet forever. Why is this fact sidestepped by most every religious teaching? Please check out the thread: Paradise on Earth. It brings out some of the many passages that describe paradise on Earth.

"Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; you will look at where they were, and they will not be there. But the meek will possess the earth, and they will find exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." (Psalm 37:10,11) "The righteous will possess the earth, and they will live forever on it." (Psalm 37:29)

Only 144,000 go to heaven, and these ones will, with Jesus, guide us here on Earth in cleaning up the earth from pollution and chaos, and making ourselves our own beautiful homes and landscapes, also teaching those that come back from the dead, what the truth about God is. Why would billions of people go to heaven? What would the purpose of that be? God made the earth for people to live on (Isaiah 45:18) and he hasn't changed his mind. There are relative few who rule with Christ. That's usually the way it is---those who are in power are usually fewer than their subjects. With Jesus and his co-rulers we will have a marvelous world here on this beautiful planet.

Check out the website www.jw.org to find out more about God's promises and his purpose for the earth.

[onewithhim]

So, are you saying that the 144,000 will not go into a physical realm, but a spiritual realm ...?

REVELATION 14:4b

These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb ...

If they stayed in the physical realm , they would remain "among mankind" but the book of Revelation at the very least there's a change, says they were bought FROM mankind TO God. God lives in heaven, so to join Jesus and his Father they cannot remain in physical realm.

And where will the "dwelling place" of God be during the kingdom of God, when David is set up as king (Ezekiel 37:24-28). Will it not be with the combined stick of Judah and Ephraim (Ezekiel 37:16).

Ezekiel 37: 27 “My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 “And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”

We are speaking about some relatively deep spiritual things here. Yes, the 144,000 will go into the spiritual realm when they die and go to be with Christ in heaven. They are the "firstfruits" to God and Christ. Theirs is the first resurrection. Those that will be raised back to earthly life will be in the second resurrection, for general mankind.

The dwelling place of God is where He will ALWAYS be---heaven/the spiritual realm. David will not reign as king. He will be brought back to life on Earth and will not reign with the 144,000. It is Jesus Christ who will reign as King on the throne of David his forefather:

Gabriel said to Mary: "You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus. This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom." (Luke 1:31-33)

We are not talking about literal tribes now, since the Christian congregation replaced the physical nation of Israel when they killed the Messiah (I Peter 2:9,10). The 144,000 are spiritual Jews, anointed as a new nation of God (Galatians 3:28,29; 6:15,16). Some are fleshly Jews as well. But all 144,000 are born again spiritual Jews who will rule over the earth with Christ.

God will be "in the midst" of his people, just as he has always been. This is nothing actually new. He will truly be "in our midst" when the whole world is cleaned up and put back in shape, if you will. His pure worship will fill the earth. All wickedness will be gone. God has been in the midst of his people in the past (Exodus 16:9; Exodus 29:46; Numbers 35:34), and Jesus is "with" all of us Christians today, even though he is in heaven now. (Matthew 28:20). So God Almighty will never literally come down to the earth, but He will be represented here by billions of His worshipers and in heaven His Son will be representing Him on the throne of David (so-called because Jehovah promised David that his progeny would rule).....and that is Jesus Christ.

[JehovahsWitness]

For example:

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)

This verse indicates that the present earth and its associated atmosphere shall pass away.

Actually it indicates quite the opposite.

Jesus here employed an ADYNATON. An adynaton—a figure of speech so hyperbolic that it describes an impossibility.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_pigs_fly

A common example in English is "when pigs fly" / " ... and pigs might fly". This is not suggesting pigs will one day FLY (any more than Jesus was suggesting heaven and earth will pass away) it is a hyperbolic expression indicating the first proposal is as IMPOSSIBLE as the second (and visa versa).






JW



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[JehovahsWitness]

The title of this debate is the 144,000. Do they go to heaven or not? And where is the heaven they are supposedly to go to, and when?

Actually the thread is entitled "The 144,000 in Jehovah's Witness theology" ; the OP asks for clarification as to OUR theology .


Regarding WHEN the 144,000 are called to heaven, we believe that call started from 1914 onward.



JW

[myth-one.com]

For example:

Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Matthew 24:35)

This verse indicates that the present earth and its associated atmosphere shall pass away.

Actually it indicates quite the opposite.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; . . .

Are Matthew and Revelation both wrong?

[2ndpillar2]

The title of this debate is the 144,000. Do they go to heaven or not? And where is the heaven they are supposedly to go to, and when?

Actually the thread is entitled "The 144,000 in Jehovah's Witness theology" ; the OP asks for clarification as to OUR theology .


Regarding WHEN the 144,000 are called to heaven, we believe that call started from 1914 onward.

JW

This is now 2021. Where did those who were JWs who died go, or do we have a lot of 100 plus year old JWs running around? And how many of them are in their graves. And what about the JWs in excess of 144,000. And which of the many heavens on record did they go, or are they actually buried in the ground? As for clarification, well, I don't see it. And why 1914? Was Ferdinand's death a trigger? I don't see the connection. Maybe 1918 was a directional point, as the Zionist were supposedly let into Judea per the Balfour Declaration, which could be a beginning point of Joel 3:1. Who do you know is now in your perceived "heaven", and what did they drink with dinner?

[JehovahsWitness]

And where will the "dwelling place" of God be during the kingdom of God...

Jesus often refered to the kingdom (which is a heavenly government) as "the kingdom of the heavens" because that is where Jesus and those that rule with him in Gods name will be located (see Rev 20:6). God is a spirit and has no need to live in our physical realm (even if it could contain his magificent power, which it cannot).

1 KINGS 8:27 - Amplified Bible

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain You; how much less this house which I have built!

So where will God live during the rule of Christ? In heaven where he has always been.




IF GOD NEVER LITERALLY COMES TO LIVE ON EARTH, IN WHAT SENSE DOES HE "DWELL" WITH MANKIND ?

REVELATION 21:3

With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them - NWT

In the sense that, like with Adam before he sinned, all barriors will be removed and humans will finally live in total harmony with their Creator. God will make his "home" with humans, not in that he will permanently vaccate his heavenly throne but that he will again be in full communion with them.

JW









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[2ndpillar2]

So, are you saying that the 144,000 will not go into a physical realm, but a spiritual realm ...?

REVELATION 14:4b

These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb ...

If they stayed in the physical realm , they would remain "among mankind" but the book of Revelation at the very least there's a change, says they were bought FROM mankind TO God. God lives in heaven, so to join Jesus and his Father they cannot remain in physical realm.

And where will the "dwelling place" of God be during the kingdom of God, when David is set up as king (Ezekiel 37:24-28). Will it not be with the combined stick of Judah and Ephraim (Ezekiel 37:16).

Ezekiel 37: 27 “My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 “And the nations will know that I am the LORD who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”

We are speaking about some relatively deep spiritual things here. Yes, the 144,000 will go into the spiritual realm when they die and go to be with Christ in heaven. They are the "firstfruits" to God and Christ. Theirs is the first resurrection. Those that will be raised back to earthly life will be in the second resurrection, for general mankind.

The dwelling place of God is where He will ALWAYS be---heaven/the spiritual realm. David will not reign as king. He will be brought back to life on Earth and will not reign with the 144,000. It is Jesus Christ who will reign as King on the throne of David his forefather:

Gabriel said to Mary: "You will become pregnant and give birth to a son, and you are to name him Jesus. This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father, and he will rule as King over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end to his Kingdom." (Luke 1:31-33)

We are not talking about literal tribes now, since the Christian congregation replaced the physical nation of Israel when they killed the Messiah (I Peter 2:9,10). The 144,000 are spiritual Jews, anointed as a new nation of God (Galatians 3:28,29; 6:15,16). Some are fleshly Jews as well. But all 144,000 are born again spiritual Jews who will rule over the earth with Christ.

God will be "in the midst" of his people, just as he has always been. This is nothing actually new. He will truly be "in our midst" when the whole world is cleaned up and put back in shape, if you will. His pure worship will fill the earth. All wickedness will be gone. God has been in the midst of his people in the past (Exodus 16:9; Exodus 29:46; Numbers 35:34), and Jesus is "with" all of us Christians today, even though he is in heaven now. (Matthew 28:20). So God Almighty will never literally come down to the earth, but He will be represented here by billions of His worshipers and in heaven His Son will be representing Him on the throne of David (so-called because Jehovah promised David that his progeny would rule).....and that is Jesus Christ.

Yeshua said the ruler of the world is coming and he has nothing in me. Yeshua is not ruling the world today. It is the demon spirits of Revelation 16:13 who are doing the influencing of the world leaders of today. As for Matthew 28:20, it was not in early editions and is not really a reliable source. As for what is written by the false prophet Paul in Galatians, that should be a non-starter. As for where Yeshua is, well he went to sit at the right hand of God in order to send the Comforter. If you want to talk to him, you will have to go to heaven. If you know how to get to heaven, and where it is, then let everyone know where it is, and who you saw while there. As for the "whole world" put back in shape, well, it will take a "sharp sword", and a "rod of iron" to keep the nations/Gentiles in line (Revelation 19:15). As for Luke, a teller of other people's tales (Luke 1: 1-3), well you have to take what he says with a grain of salt. No one but the beasts of Revelation 17 have ruled the world to this point. The rule of king David starts with the unification of the "stick of Judah" with the "stick of Ephraim", producing the whole house of Israel/Jacob, which lays in abeyance (Ezekiel 37). First you will have to have the crushing of all the nations of Daniel 2:45 at the same time, to set up the kingdom, which hasn't apparently been completed. Persia, the "breast of silver", seems to have been left mostly intact at this point. Persia declared neutrality during WWI and remained mostly unscathed as a nation at that time of WWI.

As for your quote from the "worthless shepherd", Peter (Zechariah 11:17), he takes two different verses out of context and makes a false presentation. The "stumbling block to me" (Matthew 16:19) was Peter, and the stumbling block of the source, Isaiah 8:14, which was quoted in 1 Peter 2:8-9, was directed to those who did not speak according to the "law and to the testimony/prophets" (Isaiah 8:20-22), and they will face "distress and darkness". And the "chosen people" are Israel (Dt 14:2 & 26:18) and are to keep all of My commandments.

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are they not resurrected from their graves into a physical realm to reign with "Christ" (Revelation 20:4)?

No, those that reign within Christ have been invited to do so from heaven Note how Jesus explained the invitation to his Apostles...

JOHN 14:2-3 New International Version

2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am

We NOTE Jesus never said he would return to join them and live with them once more on the earth, but rather that he would return and take them to live with him in the place he prepared [in his fathers house].






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