The 144,000 in JW theology

[Wootah]

My understanding only 144,000 JWs go to heaven in total over the sum of human history.

https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... to-heaven/

Is that correct?

There are 9 million JWs worldwide (rounded up).

https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... w-many-jw/

Will the vast majority of them not go to heaven and be annihilated? What happens to the JWs that don't make the 144, 000?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #310]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

BTW in answer to your question, "As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?"

Do any of those calendars calculate the Earth going around the sun more than once a year? Or two or more years equaling one year? If not, then the type of calendar doesn't matter in order to count the years.

[JehovahsWitness]

As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?

I will refer to the Watchtower June 15th 1951 regarding this question:

In establishing the length of the seven times of the Gentiles, a time or year of 360 days is used, to give 2,520 days, which become 2,520 years when Ezekiel 4:6 is applied. Yet when we figure from 607 B.C. down to A.D. 1914, the 2,520 years are solar years of 365 1/4 days each, and not lunar years of 360 days each. Is this proper?—N. N., New Zealand.

The Bible records ignore the solar year of 365 1/4 days as far as measuring natural time and prophetic time. The moon was used for fixing the months, and then the spring growing season for determining the beginning of the year in relation to the moon, making necessary 7 times every 19 years the addition of an intercalary month or Ve-Adar month, a thirteenth month. So since the length of the Jewish year was not stabilized to 365 days plus a leap year of 366 days, prophecy fixed a system of measurement of its time periods at 360 days for a year or time, calculating 30 full days to a month instead of the actual 29 1/2 days to a lunation. Genesis 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4 shows Noah calculated 30 days roughly to a month. Further confirmation of this unit as a prophetic norm of time is given us at Revelation 11:2, 3, where 42 months are run parallel with 1,260 days, making a year of 12 months equal 360 days. Note also that when Revelation 12:6, 14 parallels 3 1/2 years or times with 1,260 days it takes each time or symbolic year as equal to 360 days, and not 365 1/4 days by saying that the 3 1/2 times equal 1,278 and a fraction days. In 3 1/2 years or times there would be at least one and possibly two intercalary months, as explained by The Watchtower, March 15, 1948, pages 91, 92; yet Revelation ignored such intercalary months in giving the days of the 3 1/2 times. So we figure according to God’s Biblical way and are on firm foundation in saying that the symbolic seven times equal 2,520 years. And these 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons.

That this method of calculating is correctly used to bring us to A.D. 1914 from 607 B.C. is confirmed for us by the physical facts that have become manifest from that year 1914 on, in fulfillment of Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, Luke 21, and other prophecies concerning Christ’s second presence, in the time of the end.

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[2ndpillar2]

As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?

I will refer to the Watchtower June 15th 1951 regarding this question:

In establishing the length of the seven times of the Gentiles, a time or year of 360 days is used, to give 2,520 days, which become 2,520 years when Ezekiel 4:6 is applied. Yet when we figure from 607 B.C. down to A.D. 1914, the 2,520 years are solar years of 365 1/4 days each, and not lunar years of 360 days each. Is this proper?—N. N., New Zealand.

The Bible records ignore the solar year of 365 1/4 days as far as measuring natural time and prophetic time. The moon was used for fixing the months, and then the spring growing season for determining the beginning of the year in relation to the moon, making necessary 7 times every 19 years the addition of an intercalary month or Ve-Adar month, a thirteenth month. So since the length of the Jewish year was not stabilized to 365 days plus a leap year of 366 days, prophecy fixed a system of measurement of its time periods at 360 days for a year or time, calculating 30 full days to a month instead of the actual 29 1/2 days to a lunation. Genesis 7:11, 24; 8:3, 4 shows Noah calculated 30 days roughly to a month. Further confirmation of this unit as a prophetic norm of time is given us at Revelation 11:2, 3, where 42 months are run parallel with 1,260 days, making a year of 12 months equal 360 days. Note also that when Revelation 12:6, 14 parallels 3 1/2 years or times with 1,260 days it takes each time or symbolic year as equal to 360 days, and not 365 1/4 days by saying that the 3 1/2 times equal 1,278 and a fraction days. In 3 1/2 years or times there would be at least one and possibly two intercalary months, as explained by The Watchtower, March 15, 1948, pages 91, 92; yet Revelation ignored such intercalary months in giving the days of the 3 1/2 times. So we figure according to God’s Biblical way and are on firm foundation in saying that the symbolic seven times equal 2,520 years. And these 2,520 years should be counted as solar years, because the Jewish lunar years of 360 days, over long periods of time, kept pace with the solar years by means of the intercalary months added at set intervals, thereby always maintaining the necessary harmony between the year’s beginning and the seasons.

That this method of calculating is correctly used to bring us to A.D. 1914 from 607 B.C. is confirmed for us by the physical facts that have become manifest from that year 1914 on, in fulfillment of Matthew 24 and 25, Mark 13, Luke 21, and other prophecies concerning Christ’s second presence, in the time of the end.

There have been no "physical facts" that have "become manifest" from the year 1914, per the "fulfillment of Matthew 24 and 25". As for Jewish years keeping "pace" with Gregorian years, well you take 1914, and subtract 2520, you get 616, and not 607 BC. Not that the JWs have a clue into solving the time, times, and half a time riddle, which is the time span after which the "another" king of Daniel 7:24 will be "annihilated and destroyed forever" (Daniel 7:25-27). They know not who that king was, or what decree he made that they abide, and therefore bear his mark. Those bearing that mark will drink from the "cup of His anger" (Revelation 14:10). JWs apparently have gone down the rabbit hole. Not that was not expected, for per Daniel 12:10, "wicked"/lawless, will be without understanding. As for the year 607 BC designated by JWs as the time of the fall of Jerusalem, the traditional date is 587 BC, for whatever that is worth. What is important with respect to any clock, would be the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25), and the present state of Israel was inaugurated in 1948 AD, which would be the start of the restoration of Judah and Jerusalem per Joel 3:1, just prior to the nations coming against Jerusalem, in the day of the LORD (Zechariah 14) and the nations/Gentiles, being judged (Joel 3:2). 1917 would have been a date of interest, for that was the date of the Balfour declaration, giving the Zionist access to Judea. Apart from that, no compilation of nations was "annihilated and destroyed forever" as stated in Daniel 7:25-27.

[2ndpillar2]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #310]

You're certainly welcome to your opinion.

BTW in answer to your question, "As for Daniel and his 2520 days, which you proscribe as 2520 years, that begs the question; do you use Jewish lunar years, or the JWs Julian calendar years, or the Roman Catholic Gregorian calendar with the years being broken down into months named after different gods?"

Do any of those calendars calculate the Earth going around the sun more than once a year? Or two or more years equaling one year? If not, then the type of calendar doesn't matter in order to count the years.

The Roman emperor Julius Caesar set up a solar calendar year, whereas the Jews had a lunar year, which depends on the cycle of the moon. One is based on the sun, and one is based on the moon. Two different types of years.

[JehovahsWitness]

...no compilation of nations was "annihilated and destroyed forever" as stated in Daniel 7:25-27.

You seem to be mixing up prophetic events, see below


GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

The Gentile times The 2,520 year period during which God had no royal representative on earth. It runs from the Babylonian destruction of Jeusalem the beginning of the Messianic kingdom in 1914.

1914 : The year according to bible prophecy Christ began ruling as King of the Messianic kingdom

God's kingdom/the Messianic Kingdom: God's heavenly Government made headed by Christ + 144,000 co-rulers

last days /end times : The period from 1914 to Harmageddon

Christ's presence [greek: parousia]: The period during which Christ rules as king of the Messianic kingdom before he destorys the wicked. It corresponds to "the last days".

THE "first" resurrection The calling of those of the 144,000 who have died To take up their heavenly office; starting in 1914 and continuing to just after the beginning of the Great Tribulation

"this generration" [Mat 24]: the generation that would witness both the beginning and the end of the last days.

the second coming/ The Return of Christ: The climatic event of the Great Tribulation when Christ judges the wicked

Harmageddon/Armageddon : When Christ returns in Kingdom power to war with God's enemies: destroying the wicked and "imprisoning" Satan

THE Great Crowd [Rev 7:9] : Earthly survivors of the Great Tribulation

The Millenium / Judgement "day" : The idyllic 1000 year period that runs from just after Harmageddon to the release of Satan

FURTHER READING : https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/nwtstg

To learn more please go to other posts related to

DANIEL'S PROPHECIES , .THE SECOND COMING * and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

*The Return of Christ

[2ndpillar2]

...no compilation of nations was "annihilated and destroyed forever" as stated in Daniel 7:25-27.

You seem to be mixing up prophetic events, see below


GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

The Gentile times The 2,520 year period during which God had no royal representative on earth. It runs from the Babylonian destruction of Jeusalem the beginning of the Messianic kingdom in 1914.

1914 : The year according to bible prophecy Christ began ruling as King of the Messianic kingdom

God's kingdom/the Messianic Kingdom: God's heavenly Government made headed by Christ + 144,000 co-rulers

last days /end times : The period from 1914 to Harmageddon

Christ's presence [greek: parousia]: The period during which Christ rules as king of the Messianic kingdom before he destorys the wicked. It corresponds to "the last days".

THE "first" resurrection The calling of those of the 144,000 who have died To take up their heavenly office; starting in 1914 and continuing to just after the beginning of the Great Tribulation

"this generration" [Mat 24]: the generation that would witness both the beginning and the end of the last days.

the second coming/ The Return of Christ: The climatic event of the Great Tribulation when Christ judges the wicked

Harmageddon/Armageddon : When Christ returns in Kingdom power to war with God's enemies: destroying the wicked and "imprisoning" Satan

THE Great Crowd [Rev 7:9] : Earthly survivors of the Great Tribulation

The Millenium / Judgement "day" : The idyllic 1000 year period that runs from just after Harmageddon to the release of Satan

FURTHER READING : https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/nwtstg

Sure, the "kingdom" is set up with Daniel 7:26-27 after the judgment of the nations, which happens after Joel 3:1-3, and according to you, a kingdom is set up after the 2520 years, a punishment for Judah, which actually comes from Leviticus 26:2, whereas it is for 7 years at 360 days per year, not based on 365.25 days per year. In Daniel 7, the "everlasting kingdom is set up after time, times and half a time, when the nations will be judged. In Daniel 9, the judgment will come upon the one who makes desolate. A side note is that the kingdom of Babylon came to an end 2520 weeks (70 x 360) after the destruction of Jerusalem. As for time, times, and half a time, according to Revelation 12:14, it is the time the "woman"/church was flown into the wilderness to be protected from the "serpent". It is the time when the "serpent"/devil, the prince to come, prevailed. The "serpent"/devil prevails to this day and has yet to be locked into the abyss (Revelation 20). Now please tell me who was the "another" king of Daniel 7:25, and how long was the time, times and half a time before "his dominion was taken away", and the "everlasting kingdom" was set up? And what does that "dominion" represent? Does the devil/serpent still rule today, or are the JWs in charge?

[JehovahsWitness]

... tell me who was the "another" king of Daniel 7:25, and how long was the time, times and half a time before "his dominion was taken away", and the "everlasting kingdom" was set up? And what does that "dominion" represent?

The visions of Daniel CHAPTER 7 have already been fulfilled. Daniels beast dreams present the succession of secular rulerships from his day in the 5th century BCE up to the establishment of the Kingdom in 1914. (The "times" mention have no direct relation to those of "the gentile times")

The kingdom whose rise to prominence runs right up to the setting up of the "everlasting [Messianic] kingdom", is the British empire.



The establishment of the Messianic kingdom in 1914 "took away" his right to world "domination" marking it (and all other rulerships) for destruction at Harmageddon (see Dan 7:26).

As a result of their "Great War" partnership , Britain and America would eventually form a anglo-american world power. It was this political enemy "kingdom" would persecute God's people during and after World War I.



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GLOSSARY OF TERMS [END TIMES]

[2ndpillar2]

... tell me who was the "another" king of Daniel 7:25, and how long was the time, times and half a time before "his dominion was taken away", and the "everlasting kingdom" was set up? And what does that "dominion" represent?

The visions of Daniel CHAPTER 7 pressent the succession of secular rulerships from Daniels day in the 5th century BCE up to the establishment of the Kingdom in 1914. (The times mention have no direct relation to those of "the gentile times")

The kingdom mentioned just before the establishment of the Messianic Kingdom is the British empire.

To learn more please go to other posts related to

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*The Return of Christ

The kingdoms following your "Messianic Kingdom" in 1914, were the Nazi kingdom, best known as the 3rd Reich (the 3rd Roman Empire), in collusion with the leader/king of Itali, Mussolini, who addressed himself as Julius Caesar, all at the time of the Stalin, the successor of the Russian Czar (Caesar). It was the British empire, along with its satellite countries, which defeated the Germans (feet of iron), mixed with clay (Daniel 2:45), the Ottomans (Islamist) at the battle of Har-Magedon in 1918, and the "everlasting kingdom" has not been set up, nor do the nations "obey Him" (Daniel 7:27). The "Gentile" times are when the nations/Gentiles, overrun the outer courtyards of the temple, which happens for 42 months (Revelation 11:2), which would be 3 1/2 years of months, and if using 30 days for a month, would equal 1260 days. The nations/Gentiles are still overrunning the outer courtyard in the form of the Dome of the Rock.

[JehovahsWitness]

Do I have to remind you (in line with the OP) I was not presenting your interpretation of Daniel chapter 7, I was explaining the Jehovahs Witness interpretation. You asked me what we believe the verses mean so I told you.

I don't recall asking you for how you interpret the verses but thanks for sharing.



JW

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[onewithhim]

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #310]

Hopefully all people that have been following this thread will themselves go to the links that have been proved by JehovahsWitness and tigger and 2timothy. It makes perfect sense, combined with all other Scripture.