Making sense of the NT

[Sherlock Holmes]

Hello,

I've been debating (online) against atheism for many years, I'm very well educated in the sciences and to a lesser degree, philosophy.

However - and I know I'm not alone here - Christianity itself, the New Testament, remarkable and thought provoking as it is, and not questioning the legitimacy of the texts we have access to, I am ultimately deeply puzzled by it all.

Christ revealed some deeply profound things, completely dumbfounding prevailing Jewish beliefs and this goes in its favor, as it's sheer radicality is just not something I'd expect to simply emerge from prevailing ideas.

Yet it makes no sense at the end of the day, for example why go to all this trouble? the entire human race is in a state of anguish, confusion and beginning to collapse, why is that logically necessary as part of creation?

What exactly are humans expected to do? it is far from clear (as is evidenced by the many doctrinal arguments over the past twenty centuries).

So that's my position, I'm interested in hearing some candidate answers!

[JehovahsWitness]

3) If killing was not in God's heart, simply sterilize the wicked. Only those who are 'righteous' will reproduce. Make it known this is what is happening.

What do we call societies where they inflict forced sterilizations?

First, this is God we are talking about.

So are you saying its NOT wrong if God does it ? Or are you saying its inacceptable no matter what? Which is It?





JW

[brunumb]

If the world is so far gone. If we are so hard-hearted and relentless in our evil. If not a single one existed with the potential to redeem the rest..

What left is there to do but to wash it all away?

I have a lot of trouble with the whole scenario. The entire population (except for a tiny cohort) has become so evil that God's Final Solution is to wipe them all out in an act of extreme barbarism. What benevolent being allows this to happen? We are talking about probable centuries of decline with no intervention. I can't even see how Noah was able to survive in the midst of all this depravity. "Washing away" all the evil is not the benign colouring book picture of cute animals boarding an ark and sailing away while the rain falls. It is a destructive event that would have been catastrophic and involved incredible suffering on the part of all the humans and animals caught up in it. Ironically, this mass slaughter didn't seem to accomplish the desired outcome. Evil persisted in humanity. Did God choose the wrong people to carry on after the deluge? When you add in all of the other problems (thoroughly discussed elsewhere) nothing about the great biblical flood story rings true, least of all God's involvement.

[JehovahsWitness]

If the world is so far gone. If we are so hard-hearted and relentless in our evil. If not a single one existed with the potential to redeem the rest..

What left is there to do but to wash it all away?

I have a lot of trouble with the whole scenario. The entire population (except for a tiny cohort) has become so evil that God's Final Solution is to wipe them all out in an act of extreme barbarism.

It would not be "act of extreme barbarism" if it were to save a the last righteous humans on earth and ultimately ensure the continuation of the species.

Hard choices sometimes have to be made.




JW

[David the apologist]

[Replying to brunumb in post #52]

It seems a bit odd to be asking about events in the OT in a thread ostensibly dedicated to whether or not the NT makes sense. Especially when the passages you folks seem to focus on are the ones that most of Christianity (including the RCC) don't take literally any more.

In any case, I'd say compare the Biblical flood narrative to any of the ones floating around the ANE - you know, the ones where the gods send a flood because mankind was making a racket, and they were sick of filing noise complaints with the local PD. Anything you need to learn about God from this passage of scripture can be learned from the differences between the two myths.

[brunumb]

If the world is so far gone. If we are so hard-hearted and relentless in our evil. If not a single one existed with the potential to redeem the rest..

What left is there to do but to wash it all away?

I have a lot of trouble with the whole scenario. The entire population (except for a tiny cohort) has become so evil that God's Final Solution is to wipe them all out in an act of extreme barbarism.

It would not be "act of extreme barbarism" if it were to save a the last righteous humans on earth and ultimately ensure the continuation of the species.

Hard choices sometimes have to be made.

JW

The motivations in no way diminish the barbaric nature of the act.

[See also: shunning]

[Difflugia]

It would not be "act of extreme barbarism" if it were to save a the last righteous humans on earth and ultimately ensure the continuation of the species.

Hard choices sometimes have to be made.

Rehabilitating a murderer and beating one to death both have the same end result, but the latter is extremely barbaric and the former is not. Positing that the choice was made by an omnipotent god that could in principle produce any possible outcome makes the difference more striking, not less.

Drowning a whole population (regardless of how unrighteous) when one has the omnipotent means to effect rehabilitation can only be considered an example of depraved indifference.

[benchwarmer]

Different, more sensible (IMHO) solutions:

1) Directly communicate with each person being 'wicked' and explain if they don't change their ways immediately they will be removed from the planet. If the person continues their ways, they are instantly vaporized. Point this out to the next person you are confronting. "Hey, stop doing <x>. See what I just did to Bob after I warned him and he didn't listen?"

Sure. But we're talking intractable evil here. We're talking the hard-heartedness of someone like pharaoh in the exodus story. Talk to them all you want but it probably won't make a difference.

First, why was pharaoh's heart hard?

(bolding mine)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Exodus 9:12
New International Version
12 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart and he would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said to Moses.

Hmmm....

Anyways, you seem to have missed my point - perhaps because I didn't fully flesh out the idea.

If this plan was "pleasing to the Lord", then I assume it would be implemented right from the start. Every human that refuses to stop being 'wicked' after having a direct talking too would instantly be vaporized. I'm not talking about a planet wide, one time vaporization - though that still would have been cleaner than killing everything in sight for no apparent reason.

Anyways:

1) Fred slaps his wife silly. God appears to Fred and gives him a talking to with a final warning. The next day Fred punches his wife instead. Later that day there is a small pile of dust where Fred once stood.

2) Bob likes stabbing people. God appears to Bob and gives him a talking to with a final warning. He also points out what happened to Fred. Bob ignores God. Bob becomes a small pile of dust.

Eventually, word gets around that people who do bad things are found missing and strange, small piles of dust are appearing. After some time, I think people might get the hint that God is in charge, means business, and follows through after giving a fair warning.

Yet a global flood wiping out EVERYTHING except for a few people who keep sinning anyways was 'better'. Sure.

2) If God felt all warnings had already been issued and couldn't be bothered with the one on ones, just vaporize every offender. No need to kill off babies, animals, and orchestrate the entire ark adventure.

Sure. But this isn't radically different from what God did. I'm sure brunumb would still have made their comment, and instead of the 'great flood' atheists would point to the 'great vaporization' as a sign of God's barbarity.

Yet it is radically different. God killed EVERYTHING except for what was on the ark. And those humans on the ark did what afterwards? Yep, kept sinning. Fantastic plan.

My plan (if 1 was too much work for an almighty god), do a one time mass vaporization then explain to everyone left what happened. Explain that from now on, any further wickedness will result in the same fate. Instant feedback that God is there and paying attention. No dead panda bears, babies, or a pointless flood. Just instant death for those who won't listen. My guess is if anybody remains, word will get around that you better stay in line.

3) If killing was not in God's heart, simply sterilize the wicked. Only those who are 'righteous' will reproduce. Make it known this is what is happening.

Ha! The great sterilization... But this option leaves evil-doers in the world, the problem being the impact this has on the rest of creation. (Like how we're currently destroying life on earth.)

Not sure why the "Ha!" Mass genocide and pointless killing of EVERYTHING is not deserving a "Ha!", but a slow weaning of the population of evil doers is too far. Ok.....

I'm sure there are many other sensible solutions than an almighty god could use that actually make sense and actually work.

I appreciate the thoughts, but I'm not sure of a better answer.

If the world is so far gone. If we are so hard-hearted and relentless in our evil. If not a single one existed with the potential to redeem the rest..

What left is there to do but wash it all away?

Well, for starters, don't let it get out of hand. Was God sleeping until the Earth fully populated up until the flood? My solutions would have nipped the problem in the bud right away and keep things fresh. My plans are not about a one and done. They are a direct response to the actual issue, rather than a tantrum that destroys EVERYTHING.

The Bible paints God as a toddler knocking over poorly built sand castle. I would be offended if I was God and read the Bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

1) Directly communicate with each person being 'wicked' and explain if they don't change their ways immediately they will be removed from the planet. If the person continues their ways, they are instantly vaporized. Point this out to the next person you are confronting. "Hey, stop doing <x>. See what I just did to Bob after I warned him and he didn't listen?"

So basically, your gripe is God didn't kill people quickly enough?

.

Ha! The great sterilization... But this option leaves evil-doers in the world, the problem being the impact this has on the rest of creation. (Like how we're currently destroying life on earth.)

Not sure why the "Ha!" Mass genocide and pointless killing of EVERYTHING is not deserving a "Ha!", but a slow weaning of the population of evil doers is too far. Ok.....

...Yet here, you seem to be suggesting a slow weaning of the population through forced sterilizaton would be a good option. Which are you recommending, instant zapping or slow reduction?

[benchwarmer]

3) If killing was not in God's heart, simply sterilize the wicked. Only those who are 'righteous' will reproduce. Make it known this is what is happening.

What do we call societies where they inflict forced sterilizations?

First, this is God we are talking about.

So are you saying its NOT wrong if God does it ? Or are you saying its inacceptable no matter what? Which is It?

You have missed my point and apparently we are now talking past each other.

My point was that we are talking about a god that is supposed to know everything (at least the full story on the humans it's watching over) and apparently it needs a way to get rid of the wicked. The current plan we are comparing to is basically a tantrum and complete wiping out of everything. An even better plan would have been to not let things go this far, but we are trying to compare plan A (Bible flood) with some alternatives.

Now, a society if made up of fallible humans. Trying to equate a society and God is baffling. It seems you want to call my proposal 'odd/bad/whatever' because if a society did that it would be atrocious. Yes, it would be because they are doing something based on likely incomplete information for who knows what reason. My solution is simply a cleaner way than mass genocide of EVERYTHING for God to implement his plan to get rid of the wicked. I notice you seemed to have no issue with my first 2 proposals. I guess death is ok, sterilization bad. Got it.

At the end of the day, I am simply pointing out the futile, ridiculous plan portrayed in the Bible. I don't think it actually happened, I'm simply showing that if it did happen, there were more logical ways to do it. There are even better ways to avoid the whole mess, but we are currently talking about flood versus X.

[JehovahsWitness]

3) If killing was not in God's heart, simply sterilize the wicked. Only those who are 'righteous' will reproduce. Make it known this is what is happening.

What do we call societies where they inflict forced sterilizations?

First, this is God we are talking about.

So are you saying its NOT wrong if God does it ? Or are you saying its inacceptable no matter what? Which is It?

You have missed my point and apparently we are now talking past each other.

My point was that we are talking about a god that is supposed to know everything...

So for a "God that is supposed to know everything" forced sterilization would be good or bad? It's a simple enough question, you just have to write the word "good" or write the word "bad". I would like to pursue this line of reasoning but dont expect a straight answer.


Have a great 2022.



JW