How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Purple Knight
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How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #1

Post by Purple Knight »

This is not a question of whether or not evolution is crazy, but how crazy it seems at first glance.

That is, when we discard our experiences and look at claims as if through new eyes, what do we find when we look at evolution? I Believe we can find a great deal of common ground with this question, because when I discard my experience as an animal breeder, when I discard my knowledge, and what I've been taught, I might look at evolution with the same skepticism as someone who has either never been taught anything about it, or someone who has been taught to distrust it.

Personally my mind goes to the keratinised spines on the tongues of cats. Yes, cats have fingernails growing out of their tongues! Gross, right? Well, these particular fingernails have evolved into perfect little brushes for the animal's fur. But I think of that first animal with a horrid growth of keratin on its poor tongue. The poor thing didn't die immediately, and this fits perfectly with what I said about two steps back paying for one forward. This detrimental mutation didn't hurt the animal enough for the hapless thing to die of it, but surely it caused some suffering. And persevering thing that he was, he reproduced despite his disability (probably in a time of plenty that allowed that). But did he have the growths anywhere else? It isn't beyond reason to think of them protruding from the corners of his eyes or caking up more and more on the palms of his hands. Perhaps he had them where his eyelashes were, and it hurt him to even blink. As disturbing as my mental picture is of this scenario, this sad creature isn't even as bad off as this boar, whose tusks grew up and curled until they punctured his brain.

Image

Image

This is a perfect example of a detrimental trait being preserved because it doesn't hurt the animal enough to kill it before it mates. So we don't have to jump right from benefit to benefit. The road to a new beneficial trait might be long, going backwards most of the way, and filled with a lot of stabbed brains and eyelids.

Walking backwards most of the time, uphill both ways, and across caltrops almost the entire trip?

I have to admit, thinking about walking along such a path sounds like, at very least, a very depressing way to get from A to B. I would hope there would be a better way.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #81

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Difflugia wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:18 pm
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Thu Jan 06, 2022 7:24 am...knowing very little about it or about its major problem areas.
So far, the only "major problem area" that you've told us about is that the Cambrian fossil record is consistent with Intelligent Design as long as we ignore the rest of science.

Now that we know that one, are there any other "major problem areas" that we should keep in mind?
Sorry, I'm not going to feed you here. If you already really, really, believe there are no serious epistemological problems in evolution theory then so be it, that's up to you.

Your answer is typical, you have no idea of these problem areas, likely because you've been told by the "authorities" that there are none or that those that are admitted are merely apparent.

This proves my point - most evolution advocates are unaware of the theory's serious problems because in their world there can be no problems, because it is axiomatic that evolution is true no matter what objections or concerns others might raise, they do not matter because they know evolution is true.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #82

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 am
Your answer is typical, you have no idea of these problem areas,
And yet you, at least presumably based on your claims, could change that by detailing these problem areas. Instead, you refuse to support your claims and leave us in the dark. Why not present what you are asserting exists?


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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #83

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 amSorry, I'm not going to feed you here.
Or support your own claims, either, apparently.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 amIf you already really, really, believe there are no serious epistemological problems in evolution theory then so be it, that's up to you.
...says the person in a debate forum.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 amYour answer is typical, you have no idea of these problem areas, likely because you've been told by the "authorities" that there are none or that those that are admitted are merely apparent.
These ad hominem attacks have no place in our discussion. Please be polite.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 amThis proves my point - most evolution advocates are unaware of the theory's serious problems because in their world there can be no problems, because it is axiomatic that evolution is true no matter what objections or concerns others might raise, they do not matter because they know evolution is true.
Maybe. Either that or creationist apologetics is just really bad. One or the other, I suppose.
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Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #84

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:32 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 amSorry, I'm not going to feed you here.
Or support your own claims, either, apparently.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 amIf you already really, really, believe there are no serious epistemological problems in evolution theory then so be it, that's up to you.
...says the person in a debate forum.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 amYour answer is typical, you have no idea of these problem areas, likely because you've been told by the "authorities" that there are none or that those that are admitted are merely apparent.
These ad hominem attacks have no place in our discussion. Please be polite.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:04 amThis proves my point - most evolution advocates are unaware of the theory's serious problems because in their world there can be no problems, because it is axiomatic that evolution is true no matter what objections or concerns others might raise, they do not matter because they know evolution is true.
Maybe. Either that or creationist apologetics is just really bad. One or the other, I suppose.
There are serious epistemological problems with evolution, any open minded seeker of truth could identify these after a few hours studying and sifting of all the huge resources at our disposal today.

I asked if you knew of these to see if you knew of these and clearly you do not, that was the purpose of my question.

I did not ask with a view to enlightening you but to show that - as I have come to recognize - the vast majority of evolution advocates do not know there are serious problems. The reason they do not know is that they've been told by prevailing authorities that there are no problems so of course they'll never know, they never bothered to look, they don't care because they've been told its a non-issue, that's why so many have no idea about these problems.

My presenting some list here is pointless, that was never my intention either, such a list will be met with denials, rejection and so on, it will accomplish little.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #85

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 am
There are serious epistemological problems with evolution, any open minded seeker of truth could identify these after a few hours studying and sifting of all the huge resources at our disposal today.
You describe these "epistemological problems with evolution" as easy to find and yet aren't willing to present them. Why is that?


Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #86

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:50 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 am
There are serious epistemological problems with evolution, any open minded seeker of truth could identify these after a few hours studying and sifting of all the huge resources at our disposal today.
You describe these "epistemological problems with evolution" as easy to find and yet aren't willing to present them. Why is that?

Tcg
It is because it will serve no purpose. The facts so far (with this specific theme we're discussing) is that no evolution advocate has admitted there even are some serious challenges, this is what I wanted to show and I have succeeded in showing that I think.

I am not and was not trying to prove there are such shortcomings because it will serve no purpose, instead, anyone who is truly open minded, open to the possibility that evolution might be false is free to look for themselves.

It is the skeptical who might gain from this not the advocate.

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #87

Post by Tcg »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:57 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:50 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 am
There are serious epistemological problems with evolution, any open minded seeker of truth could identify these after a few hours studying and sifting of all the huge resources at our disposal today.
You describe these "epistemological problems with evolution" as easy to find and yet aren't willing to present them. Why is that?

Tcg
It is because it will serve no purpose. The facts so far (with this specific theme we're discussing) is that no evolution advocate has admitted there even are some serious challenges, this is what I wanted to show and I have succeeded in showing that I think.
How could you have succeeded when you refuse to present what you claim are "serious challenges?"

I am not and was not trying to prove there are such shortcomings because it will serve no purpose, instead, anyone who is truly open minded, open to the possibility that evolution might be false is free to look for themselves.

It is the skeptical who might gain from this not the advocate.
I'm open minded so please present what you think is verifiable evidence that "evolution might be false."


Tcg
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- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

- Irvin D. Yalom

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Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #88

Post by Difflugia »

Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 amThere are serious epistemological problems with evolution, any open minded seeker of truth could identify these after a few hours studying and sifting of all the huge resources at our disposal today.
Or at least a few hours with Meyer's "textbook," eh?

Any "open minded seeker of truth" might also make the effort to analyze the vast repository of data directly related to evolution using the free tools available to them.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 amI asked if you knew of these to see if you knew of these and clearly you do not, that was the purpose of my question.
Ah. Playing the long game, I see.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 amI did not ask with a view to enlightening you but to show that - as I have come to recognize - the vast majority of evolution advocates do not know there are serious problems. The reason they do not know is that they've been told by prevailing authorities that there are no problems so of course they'll never know, they never bothered to look, they don't care because they've been told its a non-issue, that's why so many have no idea about these problems.
You keep saying this. Not only have you failed to support it, but I've told you how you can prove to yourself that it's false. I've linked (now twice) to data and tools that would allow you to formulate your own experiments that test not only the validity of evolution, but your own claims that evolution is somehow discontinuous. Neither one of us has to take someone else's word for it. I certainly haven't, despite your repeated and desperate assertions.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 amMy presenting some list here is pointless, that was never my intention either, such a list will be met with denials, rejection and so on, it will accomplish little.
I'm pretty sure that showing you how to analyze the data yourself is pointless, too ("horse to water" and all that), but hope springs eternal, I guess.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #89

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:06 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:57 am
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:50 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 am
There are serious epistemological problems with evolution, any open minded seeker of truth could identify these after a few hours studying and sifting of all the huge resources at our disposal today.
You describe these "epistemological problems with evolution" as easy to find and yet aren't willing to present them. Why is that?

Tcg
It is because it will serve no purpose. The facts so far (with this specific theme we're discussing) is that no evolution advocate has admitted there even are some serious challenges, this is what I wanted to show and I have succeeded in showing that I think.
How could you have succeeded when you refuse to present what you claim are "serious challenges?"
Because you do not even know of these shortcomings, you would be able to list them if you knew about them.
Tcg wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:06 am

I am not and was not trying to prove there are such shortcomings because it will serve no purpose, instead, anyone who is truly open minded, open to the possibility that evolution might be false is free to look for themselves.

It is the skeptical who might gain from this not the advocate.
I'm open minded so please present what you think is verifiable evidence that "evolution might be false."

Tcg
No, go and seek for yourself without me imposing my ideas, if you are truly open minded you will find this, it is out there.

The fact is - which I set out to show - is that the evolution advocate does not know, does not believe there are any serious problems, that's because they are not open minded, an open minded person would know, even if they did not accept them, they would as a matter of sound scholarship at least be aware of some of the challenges that other scientists and scholars have raised.

Sherlock Holmes

Re: How Crazy does Evolution Seem?

Post #90

Post by Sherlock Holmes »

Difflugia wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:06 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 amThere are serious epistemological problems with evolution, any open minded seeker of truth could identify these after a few hours studying and sifting of all the huge resources at our disposal today.
Or at least a few hours with Meyer's "textbook," eh?

Any "open minded seeker of truth" might also make the effort to analyze the vast repository of data directly related to evolution using the free tools available to them.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 amI asked if you knew of these to see if you knew of these and clearly you do not, that was the purpose of my question.
Ah. Playing the long game, I see.
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 amI did not ask with a view to enlightening you but to show that - as I have come to recognize - the vast majority of evolution advocates do not know there are serious problems. The reason they do not know is that they've been told by prevailing authorities that there are no problems so of course they'll never know, they never bothered to look, they don't care because they've been told its a non-issue, that's why so many have no idea about these problems.
You keep saying this. Not only have you failed to support it, but I've told you how you can prove to yourself that it's false. I've linked (now twice) to data and tools that would allow you to formulate your own experiments that test not only the validity of evolution, but your own claims that evolution is somehow discontinuous. Neither one of us has to take someone else's word for it. I certainly haven't, despite your repeated and desperate assertions.
Are there any accredited, certificated, scientific experts who are skeptical of evolution and some of the claims made in its name?

Can you answer yes or no to that question?
Difflugia wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 10:06 am
Sherlock Holmes wrote: Fri Jan 07, 2022 9:45 amMy presenting some list here is pointless, that was never my intention either, such a list will be met with denials, rejection and so on, it will accomplish little.
I'm pretty sure that showing you how to analyze the data yourself is pointless, too ("horse to water" and all that), but hope springs eternal, I guess.
Ahh, that old gem! imply that the skeptic is uneducated, knows little about evolution, attack their supposed ignorance rather than deal with the facts at hand.

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