Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[myth-one.com]

Jesus settled the issue of whether a perfect human can stay perfectly loyal to God; Humans are not inevitably destined to rebel.

Yes, that's one, and only one, in about 13 billion humans.

After the final test of the release of Satan, all those alive will have proved they love God and support his soverienty. If after that anyone does decide to oppose God, they will not be allowed to ruin paradise; the wages of sin is death.

Death will have been defeated by that time. So there will be no more death.

Consequently, the wages of sin is no longer death after that time.

Spiritual beings cannot be killed.

The maximum possible wages for sin will have become much worse that simply death.

No, death will be defeated at the end of the Millennium. After the last ones of Satan's crowd goes off into destruction, then death is no more. (Revelation 20:7-10)

Spirit beings can be killed......Satan and his hordes are cast into the lake of fire---symbolic for eternal DEATH.

All true deaths are eternal:

Death: the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

Symbolic death has no meaning.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That's straight forward -- no "symbolism"! No mention of any death.

God is a spirit being.

Can He be killed?

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus settled the issue of whether a perfect human can stay perfectly loyal to God; Humans are not inevitably destined to rebel.

Yes, that's one, and only one, in about 13 billion humans.

One is all that was necessary. The issue was : can it be done ? (Not how many would do it). Jesus by his perfect obedience becomes the gold standard all perfect humans will be held to.

[onewithhim]

Jesus settled the issue of whether a perfect human can stay perfectly loyal to God; Humans are not inevitably destined to rebel.

Yes, that's one, and only one, in about 13 billion humans.

After the final test of the release of Satan, all those alive will have proved they love God and support his soverienty. If after that anyone does decide to oppose God, they will not be allowed to ruin paradise; the wages of sin is death.

Death will have been defeated by that time. So there will be no more death.

Consequently, the wages of sin is no longer death after that time.

Spiritual beings cannot be killed.

The maximum possible wages for sin will have become much worse that simply death.

No, death will be defeated at the end of the Millennium. After the last ones of Satan's crowd goes off into destruction, then death is no more. (Revelation 20:7-10)

Spirit beings can be killed......Satan and his hordes are cast into the lake of fire---symbolic for eternal DEATH.

All true deaths are eternal:

Death: the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

Symbolic death has no meaning.

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

That's straight forward -- no "symbolism"! No mention of any death.

God is a spirit being.

Can He be killed?

The book of Revelation is mostly symbolism. It calls eternal death "the lake of fire." The lake of fire symbolizes everlasting destruction. I didn't say anything about "symbolic death." I said the lake of fire symbolizes death.

Being "tormented" in the lake of fire simply means that the individual in question is restrained from doing anything, like a person locked in a jail. In fact, the word for "tormented" is a word in the Greek that is of the same root as "tormentor" which means jailer. A jailer simply restrains an individual so that he can't do anything. So Satan and his demons are eternally restrained by being dead. Is that too difficult to understand?

God is the only Being who can't be killed.

.

[FaithWillDo]

Dear onewithhim,

You said:
The book of Revelation is mostly symbolism. It calls eternal death "the lake of fire." The lake of fire symbolizes everlasting destruction. I didn't say anything about "symbolic death." I said the lake of fire symbolizes death.

Being "tormented" in the lake of fire simply means that the individual in question is restrained from doing anything, like a person locked in a jail. In fact, the word for "tormented" is a word in the Greek that is of the same root as "tormentor" which means jailer. A jailer simply restrains an individual so that he can't do anything. So Satan and his demons are eternally restrained by being dead. Is that too difficult to understand?

After reading your post above, I felt compelled to respond to your false and blasphemous statements about Christ and Jehovah.

Your beliefs are making Jesus Christ and the Father out to be failures in accomplishing their "will" in this world - that they are too weak to overcome the "will" of mankind whom you have elevated to be equal to and even greater than God Almighty.

Your beliefs are contradicted by God's Word in many, many places. Here are just a few:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 Cor 13:8 Love never fails.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

With your beliefs, you are saying that Christ and Jehovah will fail in their mission to save mankind and that these verses above are false claims by God who is too weak to actually accomplish them. I could post dozens of more verses that directly conflict with your blasphemous statements above.

You also do not understand that "fire" is a spiritual symbol which represents the judgment of God. No where in scripture does it say that the Lake of Fire is eternal death. That is a teaching of man which ultimately comes from Satan.

Look at these verses:

1Pet 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with FIRE, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

So you believe that our faith is tried with eternal death??? That makes no sense.

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with FIRE, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

So you believe that everyone will be salted with eternal death??? That makes no sense.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by FIRE; and the FIRE shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by FIRE.

So you believe that man's work will be revealed by eternal death??? That makes no sense.

Your understanding of "fire" also says that mankind is saved by eternal death (saved by fire) but then contradict yourself because you don't believe God's fire (the Lake of Fire) will save anyone.

Isa 4:4 When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion, and shall have purged the blood of Jerusalem from the midst thereof by the spirit of judgment, and by the spirit of burning.

How can the spirit of buring (fire) ever wash away the filth of Zion if fire is eternal death?

Luke 12:49 “I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled!

So you believe that Christ is desiring to send eternal death upon the world and is looking forward to it??? That is not the God I know nor is it the God taught in scripture.

The truth is judgment (fire) is a necessary part of mankind's salvation. Without judgment, no man would be saved. Mankind's spiritual impurities must be burned away so all that is left within us is the nature and character of God that in manifested when we produce God's spiritual fruit.

God's Word says that judgment starts with the First Fruits of this age:

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with FIRE: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Everyone must be baptized by the Holy Spirit and with FIRE. Judgment starts now in this age to the First Fruits of His harvest. They are being tried with fire so as to purify them.

Look at these verses on judgment:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Isa 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Christ judges mankind because He loves us. With His judgment, mankind is purified and made into children of God. We are redeemed by judgment.

But carnal mankind does not understand judgment:

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Christ came into this world to show us the Father and to reconcile mankind to Him by making us all children of God. Your beliefs make Him out to be a utter failure.

Look at this verse:

2Pet 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Christ and Jehovah are not "willing that any should perish" but yet you believe that most of mankind is going to do just that. Where is your faith to believe God? Do you not know that God accomplishes ALL His desires and rules supreme over mankind? Why don't you believe that "none can withstand" Him? Where is your faith?

2 Chron 20:6 and he said, Jehovah, God of our fathers, art not thou God in the heavens, and rulest thou not over all the kingdoms of the nations? And in thy hand there is power and might, and none can withstand thee.

Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? And what his soul desireth, that will he do.

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Your beliefs are bringing God down to the level of weak and sinful mankind. You are blaspheming the name of Christ and Jehovah in this world and making them out to be failures, too weak to overcome the all powerful "will" of mankind. This is not the God which scripture presents to us and is certainly not the God I know and love.

Joe

[myth-one.com]

God is the only Being who can't be killed.

Speaking of those humans who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels...

If believers born again of the Spirit, as spirits, into the Kingdom of God can never die again, then they live forever from that point forward.

And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

Here is the promise made by God:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So God cannot die, angels cannot die, and humans born again of the Spirit cannot die.

So there are many, many beings which cannot die.

[Eloi]

You are mistaking inmortality for eternal life. They are two different things.

Bodies of flesh and bones DO NOT HAVE immortality, even if they are perfect.

Spirits (when they do not receive aditionally inmortality) can be destroy ... and they will be, because Devil and demons will be destroy forever. They never have had inmortality. Spirits do not die as human do now; but they can be destroy.

A good example of this is what we read about the "second death" spoken of in Revelation. This book (Rev. 20) tells us that those who are to be taken up to be kings and priests with Jesus cannot be harmed by the second death. That means that they will receive immortality when they are reunited with Jesus in heaven. However, the same chapter tells us that on earth there will be a final test, and that many will be rebellious and will be deceived by the Devil. All this happens in the Millennium on earth, while Christ's brothers have already been reunited with him, and supposedly humans ALREADY HAVE eternal life. However, although they do not die of natural causes, by rebelling against God they WILL suffer the second death, and will never be raised again.

The immortality of the brothers of Christ allows that they do not suffer damage with this type of death. Those who rebel on earth will still be destroyed, because they are not immortal ... no physical body is, due to the needs of physical bodies, including perfect physical bodies.

[myth-one.com]

You are mistaking inmortality for eternal life. They are two different things.

Definition of immortality: Having eternal life.

And you claim I am mistaken??

[Eloi]

You are mistaking inmortality for eternal life. They are two different things.

Definition of immortality: Having eternal life.

And you claim I am mistaken??

I could give you another definition. Instead, I am helping you understand the difference based on biblical passages. The Bible describes immortality as a different capacity and that God gives exclusively to some of his creatures. Angels are not immortal; just as Adam and Eve were not immortal when they were created; just as those who live on earth during the Millennium will not be immortal.

Jesus was not inmortal when he was a human being. Jews killed him:

Rev. 1:18 (...) And he laid his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last, 18 and the living one, and I became dead, but look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of the Grave.

Rom. 6:8 Moreover, if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. 9 For we know that Christ, now that he has been raised up from the dead, dies no more; death is master over him no more. 10 For [the death] that he died, he died with reference to sin once for all time; but [the life] that he lives, he lives with reference to God.

Jesus received immortality when he was exalted by God.

[JehovahsWitness]

IMMORTALITY

The Greek word a·tha·na·siʹa is formed by the negative prefix a followed by a form of the word for “death” (thaʹna·tos). Thus, the basic meaning is “deathlessness,” and refers to the quality of life that is enjoyed, its endlessness and indestructibility. (1Co 15:53, 54, ftn; 1Ti 6:16, ftn) The Greek word a·phthar·siʹa, meaning “incorruption,” refers to that which cannot decay or be corrupted, that which is imperishable.​—Ro 2:7; 1Co 15:42, 50, 53; Eph 6:24; 2Ti 1:10. - Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 p. 1189

So Biblically immortality is not simply to do with the length of life, its being indestructible. Both a human and an immortal spirit can live forever but the human life will forever be dependent on eating, drinking and having air to be sustained; whereas an immortal spirit has a "self-generating" self contained life, dependent on nothing and noone to continue.

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS






RELATED POSTS



What does the bible mean by "forever" when it speaks of the righteous living on earth ?
viewtopic.php?p=1075557#p1075557

Are angels and spirits different "life forms"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p846578

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

EVERLASTING LIFE, IMMORTALITY and ...THE PURPOSE OF LIFE

[myth-one.com]

IMMORTALITY

The Greek word a·tha·na·siʹa is formed by the negative prefix a followed by a form of the word for “death” (thaʹna·tos). Thus, the basic meaning is “deathlessness,” and refers to the quality of life that is enjoyed, its endlessness and indestructibility. (1Co 15:53, 54, ftn; 1Ti 6:16, ftn) The Greek word a·phthar·siʹa, meaning “incorruption,” refers to that which cannot decay or be corrupted, that which is imperishable.​—Ro 2:7; 1Co 15:42, 50, 53; Eph 6:24; 2Ti 1:10. - Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 p. 1189

So Biblically immortality is not simply to do with the length of life, its being indestructible.

Sure it does. -- it's everlasting life. If a life can be destroyed, it is not immortal.

Both a human and an immortal spirit can live forever but the human life will forever be dependent on eating, drinking and having air to be sustained; whereas an immortal spirit has a "self-generating" self contained life, dependent on nothing and noone to continue.

No, if a human is provided everything it needs to sustain human life, it will still age and die.

There is a limit on all physical life forms -- everything exists in some limited time.

A human life has a limit of about 120 years.

Only spiritual bodied life has no limit, being immortal.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Since every physical form of life, including human life, has a finite upper limit, the only way for any man to gain everlasting life is for that man to become a spirit.

The only way to become a spirit is to be born of the Spirit. That which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

Since man was already born once as a man, man must be born again of the Spirit to gain everlasting life.

Do you see how that works?