nobspeople wrote: ↑Wed Jan 12, 2022 8:42 am
In another thread, a poster said the following:
Does that good track record, overall include eliminating war, hunger, corruption, injustice and suffering?
It made me wonder, how would god's track record rate?
Let's look at biblically supplied highlights (not in chronical order necessarily):
God created everything
Then it made man
Then mad was tempted by satan
This would mean god made satan and allowed satan to tempt man, knowing (if god's all knowing) that man would sin
Then god got mad and pouted like a spoiled child (editorializing a bit there but you get the jest) and made man to suffer through sin and ultimately die
God asks a guy to sacrifice his son, which he tries but then god sends an angel to stop it
God gets upset with a city and obliterates it from the planet
God gets upset with humanity and drowns all terrestrial life (including babies, women in the middle of child birth, animals (which have NOTHING to do with man's sin) and plants)
God THEN offers a sacrifice to sin as himself/son/self/son/self (the debate still lingers as to the specifics of this person)
This person lives a life to his early 30s
God allows a guy to betray himself/son/self/etc and allows history to see this guy as a traitor when, in all actuality, SOME guy had to do this in order to complete god's 'plan'
Then this god/man/god/man dies and raises from the dead
God allows mankind's history to be told in 'the bible', even though there are Es and Os which cause confusion for the remainder of humanity
Being that humanity is IMPERFECT and god (is said to be) PERFECT, we can't legitimately judge the two with the same measurement.
So let's judge god's 'track record':
or
or
How would YOU judge god's work?
How should god's work be judged?
Dear nobspeople,
God's plan for this creation is perfect and is without mistake or regret. The issue for mankind is that mankind
does not and cannot know God, nor does God reveal His plan to us.
Ecc 3:11 He (God) has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.
Let me explain further by presenting the "big picture".
Man's spiritual condition we have from birth is flawed. It was NOT a mistake by God. We were made that way on purpose so that our "flesh" controls us. That is why we are carnally minded and why Christ, while in a physical body, was not. Christ was spiritually perfect and this empowered Him to overcome this carnal world and never sin. But with mankind, we cannot overcome this world and we frequently sin as a result of our spiritual flaw.
It is not man's fault that we were created imperfect. God is responsible for our marred spiritual condition that causes us to sin.
Rom 8:20-22 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, ...
So why did God make us spiritually flawed?
Since this Creation is for God's purpose of producing His offspring, He wants us to be "like" Him. And to be like Him, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil". God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Isa 45:5-7 I am the LORD, ... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.
Because of our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition,
we ALL become sinful evil creatures.
Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Mankind's carnal nature is "hatred" towards God and it veils God from us. Because of such, we can't understand God nor do we want to seek His ways.
On the other hand, Satan was created to fed upon the dust of the ground (Gen 3:14). The "dust of the ground" represents our carnal nature and that is why Satan works to destroy and deceive mankind.
When Adam and Eve were created spiritually flawed, they quickly became carnally minded. God put Satan in the Garden to do his work of tempting Eve so that she would sin. Eve could not have possibly done anything but fall to his temptations. Eve even displayed the three causes of sin BEFORE she sinned.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (lust of the flesh), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (lust of the eyes), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (pride of life), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
God, of course, knew Adam and Eve were carnally minded and would sin because He made them that way. And for this same reason, all of Adam & Eve's offspring sin as well.
Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would experience evil. With God, "evil" is a tool that He uses for His good and righteous purposes. In this case, His purpose is to create His offspring who know good and evil.
But since mankind's sin spiritually separates us from God and because He wants children, He needed to create a pathway back to Himself for mankind. To accomplish that purpose, God the Father sent Christ to be our Savior and make this reconciliation:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
In our spiritually flawed, carnally minded condition, NO PERSON can be saved. We have all sinned and the penalty of sin is death (not eternal hell). For this reason,
all mankind must die. This is an absolute truth that cannot be broken. The only solution is for mankind to be "born again" from the death we all must pay.
Christ's work on the cross gave Him the legal authority to raise us from the grave and to give us this new life. He did not die on the cross to keep us from paying the penalty of sin. He died on the cross so that our spiritually flawed vessel (which must be destroyed) can be made into a new spiritually perfect vessel.
Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
In our created spiritually flawed condition, we all reject God and cannot "choose" Him. There is nothing good within mankind. We do not have the ability to make a "free will" choice to accept Christ. No man has that ability in our spiritually marred created condition. The only way we can "choose" Christ is for Christ to individually come to us FIRST and change us from within. He does this work by giving us the Early Rain of the Spirit.
Jam 5:7-8 Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. 8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
When Christ does this work within us, we ALL accept Him and call Him "Lord" - just as Paul "typed" for us on the Damascus Road, Acts 9:3-9. There are NO EXCEPTIONS.
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
Herein lays the GREAT mystery of the church (Eph 5:32). The Early Rain of the Spirit is only an "earnest amount" of the Holy Spirit and will not save us. Because of this partial measure of the Spirit, we remain spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) and controlled by our carnal nature. As a result, Satan can and does easily deceive us. We all follow this portion of the path because we all must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
This portion of the path is mankind's "Day of Evil" and time of Great Tribulation:
Matt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?
Prov 16:4 The LORD will make all to give an answer: yea, even for the evil of the Day of Evil.
Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
When Satan comes to a new believer (only the Early Rain), he masquerades as an "angel of light" (Christ).
2Cor 11:14-15 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
We accept this deception because we are spiritually blind and don't yet have the ability to truly know Christ. Satan then feeds us his lies (leavened bread via his "ministers"), which we readily accept as the truth of Christ because his lies are pleasing to our carnal nature.
Matt 13:33 Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
Satan's ministers hide "leaven" in the meal until the whole loaf is secretly leavened with Satan's lies. Since we all eat from this leavened loaf shortly after receiving the Early Rain, we all come under Satan's deceptions. And since the leaven is "hidden" in the loaf, we don't even know that Satan is deceiving us.
Christ explained this process again this way:
Mat 12:43-45 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Unclean (evil) spirits represent Satan bringing his false truth to us. Since we remain spiritually blind after receiving the Early Rain, we cannot replace our false beliefs of the world with God's truth. One "evil spirit" leaves but comes back with seven more (represents the spirit of anti-Christ) since our house remains void of God's truth. Now, instead of "one evil spirit" within us, we now have EIGHT. The number eight spiritually represents a new spiritual condition. Our new spiritual condition is "worse than the first".
Paul calls this worsened spiritual condition the Man of Sin:
2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
After the Early Rain, our deadly head wound to our Old Man (carnal nature) that came from the sword of Christ is healed because of Satan's deceptions.
Consider these verses below which teach on the spiritual term "sword":
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 2:16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
The word "sword" is a spiritual symbol which represents the Word of God (Christ). Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.
Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of their carnal nature (Old Vessel, Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents their new birth as a child of God in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of conversion (salvation) is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword/Christ).
After we receive the first blow to our "head" by the Sword of Christ, we remain spiritually blind and as a result, we are quickly deceived by Satan. His deceptions cause us to "fall away" and become spiritually "worse than before (Man of Sin). This "falling away" is a result of NOT solely approaching Christ by Faith (New Covenant) - we try to mix in our own "works" (Old Covenant). As a result, our deadly head wound by the Sword of Christ is healed and we remain a part of the Seven-Headed Beast (mankind). The spiritual death that we needed to pay to satisfy our sin debt remains unpaid and we remain under the Law.
Christ said mankind's carnal nature prefers "works" over "faith" alone:
Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
The Old Wine is a spiritual symbol for the Old Covenant (man's works) and the New Wine represents the New Covenant of Faith (Christ's works). When a new believer mixes "works" and "faith", they try to "serve two masters" and are left desolate (lost their salvation).
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
This event is called the "abomination of desolation" by Christ:
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
"Seeing" the abomination of desolation is the same event taught by Paul when the Man of Sin is revealed (seen by the believer):
2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
After receiving the Early Rain and after coming under Satan's deceptions, we become "worse than before" (Man of Sin). At this point, we have truly "fallen away" and have returned to "works" (religion) for our salvation. We have experienced the Abomination of Desolation. This is the one and only sin that leads to our spiritual death (1John 5:16). And from this death, we cannot be renewed by repentance:
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The Doctrine of Free Will is the most common belief that causes us to "fall away". We use this false belief system to differentiate us from why unbelievers are worthy of "hell" and why believers are not. We falsely believe that we made the right "choice" from our supposed "free will" because we were smarter, wiser or just not as evil as those who rejected Christ. But in truth, we are not. It was ONLY because of Christ's work (Early Rain) within us that caused us to accept Christ as "Lord".
What I have stated above is part of the wide pathway that leads to destruction. We ALL MUST and WILL travel it since our vessel must be destroyed before we can receive a new vessel (be "born again").
Because a fallen away believer cannot be renewed by repentance, they will remain in this lost, spiritually worsened condition until either they physically die
OR Christ comes to them a second time.
In this age, Christ is only working to save His Elect, the First-Fruits of the harvest of mankind. They have been chosen from the foundation of the world and are the ONLY ones who are going to be saved at this time.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love.
However, the rest of mankind has not been forgotten by Christ. Their salvation will come in the final age (Lake of Fire age). Since mankind's salvation is 100% the work of Christ, no man can change the timing of their own salvation. The Elect are saved now in this age. In the final age, all Gentiles will be saved next. Then after their "fullness" has come in, the remaining part of Israel will finally be saved.
Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Mat 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.
If a person has been chosen from the foundation of the world, Christ will not let them die in their sins. He will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. It is the same event the Apostles experienced on the Day of Pentecost and it is the same event Paul "typed" for us when he received the Holy Spirit after being "in bed" for three days in Damascus. THIS IS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST THAT IS COMMONLY TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE. When Christ comes to us a second time, He comes as a thief in the night to destroy the Man of Sin whom we have become. When this happens, the path that leads to destruction is complete and the new babe in Christ is born. It is at this point the chosen believer begins traveling the Narrow Path that leads to maturity as a son of God.
What I have stated above is an abbreviated summary of how Christ saves one of His chosen Elect in this age. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest of mankind.
And as I said earlier, Christ will not forget the rest of mankind and will NOT leave them to rot in the field. In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work and bring in the full harvest of mankind. Then it will be testified to be true that ALL who died in Adam is the same ALL who will be made alive in Christ.
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as IN ADAM ALL DIE, EVEN SO IN CHRIST SHALL ALL BE MADE ALIVE. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
God does not fail and He never makes mistakes.
What mankind is experiencing now is how God reproduces Himself in His children. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people.
Mankind is not restored to the Father because of our "will". We are restored to the Father because it is God's "will" for it to happen. God is not a respecter of persons. All mankind will be saved and we will all travel the same pathway for that salvation. The only difference is “when” we complete the pathway and God decided that from the foundation of the world to satisfy His own purposes.
One final point I want to make. End-time prophecy is teaching about the pathway that leads to conversion. All End-time verses (includes Mat ch. 24) should be applied spiritually "within" us and not out in the world as is commonly taught. When the Latter Rain falls on one of God's chosen Elect, it causes a spiritual earthquake with lightning and thunder and trumpets. Our worldly carnal paradigm is destroyed and we are given a new paradigm in Christ. At that point, the sun is darkened and the moon is turned to blood. We no longer receive the natural light of this world. We now receive "light" (truth of God) directly from Christ.
I could have included many other scriptures/parables that further support and explain what I have stated above but then this post would have turned into a book.
Joe
