cms wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:47 pm
FaithWillDo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am
God does not directly tempt mankind and that is why He used Satan to tempt David:
FaithWillDo, David still had a choice since tempting and willing are not the same thing.
FaithWillDo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am
When we sin, we do so willingly.
I'm confused. You said before that we don't willingly sin,but that God wills us to do so.
FaithWillDo wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:44 am
Christ and mankind are living "souls" and because we are, we have separate consciousnesses. However, we are controlled by the spirit we each have within us. It is the spirit within us that causes us to "will". Christ's Spirit which dwells in Him is the full measure of the Father's Holy Spirit. Mankind's spirit we have from birth is a flawed spirit.
At present, mankind's "will" is contrary to God's "will" because we have different spirits. As a result, God must intervene and rule over man's "will" so that we do and say what He wants. But this will not always be the case. Someday, God will have our "will" so perfectly matched to His "will" that there will be no differences and no need for God to intervene.
Even more confusing: From what you're saying here, it is a flawed spirit that causes us to will an not God's Spirit. In other words, you seem to be saying that we have a separate will. How can man's will be contrary to God's will if God wills us to do evil or good. In such a case, nothing would be contrary to God's will
Purple Knight wrote: ↑Mon Jan 17, 2022 12:36 am
I don't believe I sin willingly. Not for a second.
Purple Knight, maybe the problem is in thinking that you have no free will to either sin or not to sin. In which case you would be stuck in your sin.
Dear cms,
You said:
I'm confused. You said before that we don't willingly sin, but that God wills us to do so.
Yes, you do seem confused. I'll try and make it more clear for you. God does not operate in this world by forcing our "will" to conform to His "will". But He does cause our "will" to match to His "will". He does this without our knowledge. So when a person makes a decision to do anything, it seems that they make the decision from their supposed "free will", but in fact, God prepared their heart and gave them the answer from their tongue to do as He wanted them to do. We are ignorant of how and when God did His work in us but scripture clearly says He does it.
Look at this example and maybe it will be clearer.
When a person makes a confession of faith and they accept Jesus as their "Lord", it seems to them that they did it from their own "free will". But they did not. God's Word says:
1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.
No one can accept Jesus as their "Lord" unless Jesus has come to them first and given them the gift of the Holy Spirit. After Jesus gives us this gift, in contrast, no one can call Jesus accused. The only decision they can make is to accept Jesus as their "Lord". When a person makes this confession, it is EVIDENCE of the work that Christ has done within them. It is spiritual work. This event of accepting Jesus as Lord is called the Early Rain of the Spirit and is the same event when Christ calls an unbeliever out from the world. At that point, they enter the "church". It is 100% the work of Christ that anyone become a believer.
Paul's conversion is the pattern that all mankind will eventually follow. It's a little detailed but that is only because Christ wants His Elect, those He has given "eyes that can see", to understand the full pathway to salvation.
1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
In order to understand this “pattern” (type), we must spiritually understand the steps of Paul’s conversion as recorded for us in Acts 9:3-19.
This first set of verses below “types” Paul’s time of being Called Out from the world. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit.
Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.
These first events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to be “called out from the world” (enter the Church).
When an individual is Called Out from the world to follow Christ, Christ will come to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ in our "marred" spiritual condition as is commonly taught. If we did, it would be a "work". If Christ decides to come to a person in the present age, it is a spiritual event which happens "within" us (Luke 17:21). Christ is now "spirit" and cannot be seen with human eyes.
When Christ spiritually comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit, they immediately accept Jesus as Lord just as Paul did. The new believer has risen up out of the
sea of humanity to dwell upon the
earth. The “earth” symbolizes the new believer’s carnality which still remains.
Since the new believer is still carnally minded and spiritually blind upon receiving the Early Rain, they cannot recognize the “voice” which calls to them. They must rely on being told who the voice is. After being told that the voice is the voice of Jesus, Paul answers back to Christ as “Lord”. Since scripture says that no one can call Jesus “Lord” but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3), we know that this event happening to Paul is the Early Rain of the Spirit. Paul calls Him “Lord” but lacks the ability to know Him for himself. Christ remains hidden (veiled) from Paul’s understanding, just as He remains hidden to all who experience the Early Rain of the Spirit.
Paul then asks Christ “what wilt thou have me to do”? Because Paul remains carnally minded, he believes that he must “do something” (works) to earn the Lord’s favor. The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (ministers of Satan) there will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer becomes deceived and “falls away”.
From verse 7, we see that no one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This visitation by Christ is only for the person who has been “called out”. It is a spiritual event and happens “within” Paul.
After Paul stands up and opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. Scripture goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines presented to them in the church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves.
After Paul arrived in Damascus, verse 9 says that Paul remained blind and did not eat or drink for "3" days (represents a spiritual process is taking place). Paul’s time of spiritual blindness and inability to eat the true bread from heaven or to drink the New Wine causes him to fall prey to Satan’s deceptions. He quickly “falls away” from faith and returns to “works” (2Thes 2:3). Because he rejects approaching Christ by faith alone, he commits the sin that leads to death. Now his new spiritual state is worse than his first when he was an unbeliever. He has become a Man of Sin under Satan’s influence. This happens to everyone who has been called out.
This second set of verses below represents Paul’s conversion.
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.
Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current fallen away state and that Paul will bear Christ’s name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.
In verse 17, Christ (symbolized by Ananias) comes to Paul a second time and heals his spiritual blindness and gives him the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Because Paul’s blindness is healed, Christ “appears” to Him. Paul no longer needs to be told who Christ is because he can now see Christ for himself. Paul can now start eating “meat” (truth) from God's Word.
Once Paul receives his nourishment from Christ, the brightness of Christ’s appearing (truth) destroys Paul’s religious carnal nature (the Great city Babylon/Sodom/Egypt/earthly Jerusalem) which taught him to approach God through Works of the flesh.
Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Now that the Great City is destroyed within Paul, Paul is empowered by the Spirit to walk by faith in Christ (the New Wine/Blood of Christ), the true and narrow pathway that leads to God. He can now begin drinking the New Wine. The Man of Sin is now dead and Paul is “born again”. “Saul” is now given the new name of “Paul”, a child of God.
You said:
Even more confusing: From what you're saying here, it is a flawed spirit that causes us to will an not God's Spirit. In other words, you seem to be saying that we have a separate will. How can man's will be contrary to God's will if God wills us to do evil or good. In such a case, nothing would be contrary to God's will.
Mankind is a "living soul" and has a separate consciousness & "will" that is separate from God. However, our spirit is totally controlled by God through our hearts. Mankind cannot operate outside of God's "will". Our "will" is not "free".
Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.
In our created state, we
do not have the Holy Spirit operating within us. We have a "marred" spirit that is weak. Because of this weakness, we are easily controlled by our flesh (we develop a carnal mind) and are easily deceived by Satan (Satan was made for this purpose). But in this spiritual condition, God still causes our "marred" spirit to comply with His "will". Much like what this verse says:
Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
So in that sense, (as you said), nothing is contrary to God's "will" but only because God does not allow anything to be contrary to His "will". We have a "will" but it is not free.
Look at this verse:
1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
God the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ causes all things to be as they are. Everything in this creation happens because it is God's "will" for it to happen. No one (not even Satan) directs their own path that is contrary to the path God lays out for them to follow.
In our spiritually blind, carnally minded condition we presently have, we have no ability to sense the work that God does in our heart to accomplish His "will":
Ecc 3:11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity (the world) in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does, that which God does from the beginning to the end.
We can only know that God is working in our hearts because He tells us He is through scripture. It takes faith to believe Him since our senses cannot detect His work in our hearts. We must walk by faith and not by sight.
Joe
