"Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

[Tcg]

.

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:

Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals

Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg

[Tcg]

[Replying to Tcg in post #25

The data presented in this article reveal that theology is not innate. When education doesn't include teaching about god/gods less people believe in god/gods. If it were innate, as you claim, education or lack thereof wouldn't change the rate of theism in the population. The reality is that it does.

The data in the article may suggest that theology isn't innate, but there's usually more than one side to a story.

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1387772

The data reveals that the belief in god/gods isn't innate and must be taught. That's the only side to this story.


Tcg

[Veridican]

So, you just delete my response to you? I answered your question, and you delete it?

Moderator Intervention

I checked the logs for the past day. There has been no posts that has been deleted anywhere on the forum.


______________

Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.

I appreciate you checking, but honestly, it doesn't matter to me if it did get deleted. Tcg is a global moderator and doesn't even counter what I said about it being deleted. Or, maybe I didn't hit the submit button before leaving the board. We'll never know. But I've been doing this stuff since the mid 1990's, and I've been treated in all manner of ways.

[Veridican]

The data reveals that the belief in god/gods isn't innate and must be taught. That's the only side to this story.


Tcg

Of course, God has to be taught. The entire animal kingdom reveals that God is a learned thing. Notwithstanding, we are the only animals capable of learning about God, or understanding the concept of Christ. In fact, when you think about it, if one is an atheist--a true atheist as opposed to someone who's just pissed off at religion--then there has to be something missing in them. They should be able to believe.

[brunumb]

In fact, when you think about it, if one is an atheist--a true atheist as opposed to someone who's just <...deleted...> at religion--then there has to be something missing in them. They should be able to believe.

Everyone is able to believe. Sometimes, some of us don't get the necessary thorough indoctrination when our minds are most receptive and uncritical of the information we are being fed. There is nothing missing in us. We just don't buy ridiculous, unsupported claims, particularly when it comes to fantastic tales of gods, heaven and all the rest of it. Belief is not simply a matter of choice. If one's brain doesn't find the arguments compelling, well, that's it. No belief. If there is a god that wants us to believe, then it's his problem to fix. I would suggest to him, if he is listening, that he find a better way to get his message across than via intermediaries who are usually no better than shonky used car dealers.

[Tcg]

So, you just delete my response to you? I answered your question, and you delete it?

Moderator Intervention

I checked the logs for the past day. There has been no posts that has been deleted anywhere on the forum.


______________

Moderator interventions do not count as a strike against any posters. They are given at the discretion of a moderator when he or she feels that some sort of intervention is required.

I appreciate you checking, but honestly, it doesn't matter to me if it did get deleted. Tcg is a global moderator and doesn't even counter what I said about it being deleted. Or, maybe I didn't hit the submit button before leaving the board. We'll never know. But I've been doing this stuff since the mid 1990's, and I've been treated in all manner of ways.

I didn't counter what you posted for two reasons:

1. It wasn't clear that your false accusation was directed to me.

2. I checked the logs and there was no record of any post being deleted.

We may never know what you did, but we do indeed know what didn't happen and that was that no post was deleted. How you may or may not have been treated since the mid 1990's is irrelevant to what has and has not taken place here. On this forum you will be treated fairly no matter what your claims are.


Tcg

[Bust Nak]

directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining

You guys are supposed to be familiar with logical fallacies.

Worth noting that comments directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining is not a fallacy unless one draws the conclusion "they are unwilling to face reality of death, therefore they are incorrect."

[Athetotheist]

directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining

You guys are supposed to be familiar with logical fallacies.

Worth noting that comments directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining is not a fallacy unless one draws the conclusion "they are unwilling to face reality of death, therefore they are incorrect."

That conclusion is the insinuation made in the fallacy.

[otseng]

I appreciate you checking, but honestly, it doesn't matter to me if it did get deleted. Tcg is a global moderator and doesn't even counter what I said about it being deleted. Or, maybe I didn't hit the submit button before leaving the board. We'll never know. But I've been doing this stuff since the mid 1990's, and I've been treated in all manner of ways.

In all likelihood, you never posted it. This reveals one reason why you are "treated in all manner of ways". Do not automatically accuse others when it's most likely a fault of your own.

Rules? There's a million rules for this website. There is no possible way of following them. And like I said: I did--they deleted it.

Another reason is you need to follow the rules. If you don't even bother to read the rules (no matter how many there are), do not blame the mods for enforcing the rules when you violate them. Your posts there were not deleted either, they were moved to Random Ramblings.

[Bust Nak]

directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining

You guys are supposed to be familiar with logical fallacies.

Worth noting that comments directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining is not a fallacy unless one draws the conclusion "they are unwilling to face reality of death, therefore they are incorrect."

That conclusion is the insinuation made in the fallacy.

That's the point, I didn't see where anyone concluded that theists are incorrect because they are unwilling to face death. Did you?

[Sherlock Holmes]

.

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:

Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals

Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg

The article says simply "there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning" clearly that's a conclusion drawn from data, I'd like to see more on that as I'm skeptical.

I find it very difficult to accept that a change in education like that can have "no impact" on these things, there simply must be some impact.

For example crime, rape and suicide are all lower over the past decade or more, can we conclude none of that is due to a rise in atheism's popularity?