"Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals"

[Tcg]

.

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:

Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals

Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg

[Tcg]

.

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:

Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals

Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg

I find it very difficult to accept that a change in education like that can have "no impact" on these things, there simply must be some impact.

There was and it is listed quite clearly:

"They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance)."

Perhaps you overlooked it.


Tcg

[Sherlock Holmes]

.

This article reports on data from Germany that reveals that abolishing religious teaching in schools leads to a decline in belief but not morality:

Ending religion lessons in schools leads to overall decline in belief but not morals
Torsten Bell

Data taken from across Germany reveals that as mandated RE was abolished, atheism increased as a collective choice

We tend to think about religiousness as a personal decision but new research examining the role of schools illustrates that collective choices have a part to play. The authors use data from Germany, exploiting the fact the religious education mandated by the postwar West German constitution was removed across different states at different times from the 1970s. They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance). The effect was biggest in Catholic areas.

Before the social conservatives get all up in arms, note there was no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning. That may be because religious education was replaced with non-denominational ethical teaching, rather than more maths.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... not-morals

Does this finding support the claim some make that humans are indeed atheists at birth and will remain so unless or until they are taught to believe in god/gods?

Is it likely that some will continue to view atheists as being less moral than theists even though the data reported here contradicts that view and if so, why?


Tcg

I find it very difficult to accept that a change in education like that can have "no impact" on these things, there simply must be some impact.

There was and it is listed quite clearly:

"They find abolishment significantly reduced religiousness, both in private (less praying) and public (church attendance)."

Perhaps you overlooked it.


Tcg

I overlooked nothing.

I made no comment about the (bizarre) claim "abolishment significantly reduced religiousness" but of the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning".

It is the latter claim I am skeptical of, perhaps you overlooked it.

Perhaps they define "morals" and "ethics" as those traits that were apparently unaffected by abolishing religious education in which case it would be hardly relevant.

[Tcg]

I made no comment about the (bizarre) claim "abolishment significantly reduced religiousness" but of the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning".

It is the latter claim I am skeptical of, perhaps you overlooked it.

Then feel free to provide verifiable evidence that contradicts this data.


Tcg

[Veridican]

In all likelihood, you never posted it. This reveals one reason why you are "treated in all manner of ways". Do not automatically accuse others when it's most likely a fault of your own.

No. It's most likely deleted...I was just trying to be...gracious. That was me being nice. Like I said. I don't care; it's your forum.

Another reason is you need to follow the rules. If you don't even bother to read the rules (no matter how many there are), do not blame the mods for enforcing the rules when you violate them. Your posts there were not deleted either, they were moved to Random Ramblings.

Oh, right. My philosophical argument I tried to post in the Philosophy board, which is completely original in the world by the way, was moved to an obscure board because in some way, some Jeopardy manner, I didn't state it as a question. Well, here's some news from the dungeon: No one's been able to defeat it. No one ever can. Your atheism is defeated by it. And if you had let it see the light of day, you would have at least gotten a consolation prize--it destroys the classic Christian idea of God as well. Just sayin...

[Tcg]

No. It's most likely deleted...I was just trying to be...gracious.

As has been explained already, nothing was deleted.


Tcg

[Sherlock Holmes]

I made no comment about the (bizarre) claim "abolishment significantly reduced religiousness" but of the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning".

It is the latter claim I am skeptical of, perhaps you overlooked it.

Then feel free to provide verifiable evidence that contradicts this data.


Tcg

I never claimed there was evidence contradicting the data, please re-read what I wrote.

[Veridican]

In fact, when you think about it, if one is an atheist--a true atheist as opposed to someone who's just <...deleted...> at religion--then there has to be something missing in them. They should be able to believe.

Everyone is able to believe. Sometimes, some of us don't get the necessary thorough indoctrination when our minds are most receptive and uncritical of the information we are being fed.

And that's a shame. Children then grow up without a classic education in religion, and also without any knowledge of God or Christ. They just group up like little beasts, I guess. Good thing we still potty train them.

There is nothing missing in us. We just don't buy ridiculous, unsupported claims, particularly when it comes to fantastic tales of gods, heaven and all the rest of it.

I know there's nothing missing in you anyway. You hang out on a religion debate forum. You probably do believe in God. In fact, I'll bet you pray--granted it may be arguing and fighting--but I'll bet you pray more than most...Catholics do. My guess is you're not really an atheist, you just want God on your own terms. Which I completely get. It doesn't mean your atheism is a correct doctrine any more than Catholicism is, but I doubt you're a "true" atheist.

Belief is not simply a matter of choice. If one's brain doesn't find the arguments compelling, well, that's it. No belief. If there is a god that wants us to believe, then it's his problem to fix. I would suggest to him, if he is listening, that he find a better way to get his message across than via intermediaries who are usually no better than shonky used car dealers.

I agree. But I think He has. Of course, if anything you're presented with, you're going to doubt as a matter of course, no matter how unlikely it is to ever occur by chance, well then, you can't blame God. Sometimes I think atheists want God to drive them mad in order to prove He exists.

When I was a psych nurse, I remember there was this patient, massive African-American man, like a football player, totally psychotic, schizophrenic. He would stand in the middle of his room butt nekkid, with his eyes closed, listening to something. Of course, I would check on him every 30 minutes or so. There was a camera in his room as well. But whenever I would ask him if he was alright or needed anything--a snack or something--he would just gently shush me as if I were interrupting a TV show, and smile ever-so slightly and say, "No, no, no, I'm good. I'm good." And then he would go on listening to whatever it was he was listening to and completely ignore me.

Maybe he was listening to God.

Is that what you want?

[Tcg]

I made no comment about the (bizarre) claim "abolishment significantly reduced religiousness" but of the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning".

It is the latter claim I am skeptical of, perhaps you overlooked it.

Then feel free to provide verifiable evidence that contradicts this data.


Tcg

I never claimed there was evidence contradicting the data, please re-read what I wrote.

I've already read it. I was curious as to whether or not you could support your skepticism with something like facts.


Tcg

[Veridican]

As has been explained already, nothing was deleted.

Tcg

Got it.

[Sherlock Holmes]

I made no comment about the (bizarre) claim "abolishment significantly reduced religiousness" but of the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning".

It is the latter claim I am skeptical of, perhaps you overlooked it.

Then feel free to provide verifiable evidence that contradicts this data.


Tcg

I never claimed there was evidence contradicting the data, please re-read what I wrote.

I've already read it. I was curious as to whether or not you could support your skepticism with something like facts.


Tcg

I'm skeptical by default, it is my default position unless and until rational justifications emerge that might change that position.

Have you yourself even seen the purported evidence behind the claim "no impact on moral or ethical views, life satisfaction or political leaning"?