Why not just Jesus?

[Veridican]

Do you ever wonder why, if we are Christians, we don't just follow the Gospels? Like, they would be our only canon of scripture, everything else would just be for historical reference, wisdom, or good advice, but we would be followers of Jesus ONLY. He would be our only teacher. Our canon then would be Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Revelation. Why has there never even been a cult, or church, or denomination like that in all of history?

[Tcg]

No, that is not atheism. Atheism is the lack of belief in god/gods. Some atheists believe in an afterlife:

Well, there are atheists (so-called) who have not examined the implications of their so-called lack of belief. I would argue that they really aren't atheists, they simply are not religious.

So-called lack of belief? I'm an atheist and my lack of belief is a lack of belief not a so-called one. Of course, it is not unusual for some theists to presume they know an atheist's position better than the atheist themselves.


Tcg

[Veridican]

So-called lack of belief? I'm an atheist and my lack of belief is a lack of belief not a so-called one. Of course, it is not unusual for some theists to presume they know an atheist's position better than the atheist themselves.

Tcg

I know I do. I know why you don't believe, and I know why you can't believe. Wanna hear a story? True fact: When I developed the Veridican Argument for the Existence of God, I noticed it had a peculiarity: It also, at the same time, disproved the existence of the classic Christian God. So, you see, the classic Christian God that you rail against with your disrespectful avatar and your pretense of non-belief, unlike you, I can actually prove does not and cannot exist. In other words, what you want, I have, and I don't have to wrangle definitions of disbelief vs non-belief vs lack of belief or "prove-it" dodges, or any of that. I can prove the classic, Christendom God CANNOT exist. And I can prove God, Himself, does exist.

Don't expect me to back off. I won't do it. I see your name is in green, so you're probably a moderator in the forum. I want you to know, I don't care. I won't back off. Is this uncivil? Who cares? You all have the ban-button whether it is or not. I have a forum myself, and I have had lots of forums and been in lots of forums and lots of Facebook groups and owned a 94K member Facebook group several years ago. You don't need rules and you don't have to answer to anyone. When you can't handle it anymore--ban me. That's it.

[Tcg]

The only way to get banned is to consistently violate the rules or asked to be banned. If one of your posts violates the rules you will be given either a warning or a comment by an admin or moderator. In most cases you will be given many chances to mend your ways and abide by the rules before you will be banned.

As I mentioned, the rules are so numerous and vague that it really doesn't matter. Someone will ban me, eventually, they will. Some mod, in the middle of the night, and no one will notice, and no one will care. They will just assume I've moved on.

As I stated, in most cases it takes quite a bit to get banned and you will receive clear notification that you are on the path. Additionally, banning usually involves a vote by the admin/mod team and won't be done in "the middle of the night" as you falsely suggest.

Grevious incivility may lead to a quicker banning as will the forementioned asking to be banned. If one desires to participate in this forum and is willing to be civil, they will likely have a long career here as evidenced by the many posters who have been participating for years.

We'll see, won't we?

Yes, we will.


Tcg

[Tcg]

So-called lack of belief? I'm an atheist and my lack of belief is a lack of belief not a so-called one. Of course, it is not unusual for some theists to presume they know an atheist's position better than the atheist themselves.

Tcg

I know I do. I know why you don't believe, and I know why you can't believe.

No, you don't. You have no knowledge as to why I as an individual atheist lacks belief in god/gods.


Tcg

[tam]

Peace to you all!

And wow. Been out and busy all day and come home and just look at how this thread has progressed.

Please forgive me for the length (I may need to put it into two posts), but there was much in me to say, and there may yet be more. Please forgive also the all caps. I am not yelling, it is just for emphasis.


First:

All I'm saying is it seems strange that, apparently, until me, no one has ever thought of just following the life and teachings of Jesus Christ--solely.

I find it strange that you think no one has ever thought of just following the life and teachings of [Jesus] Christ - solely, until you. Do you really think that is true? Even so, it comes up just a bit short... because He said "Come, Follow me!" Not just His life and teachings, but He, Himself.

And surely you must agree that just because you (or someone else) starts a religion making the CLAIM that "we follow [Jesus] Christ and Him alone", doesn't mean you're truly doing that. What you have done looks exactly the same as what every other religion out there has done, making creeds, inserting your own rules and interpretations, using the name "Jesus", seeking to gain adherents for a religion - which takes the focus off of Christ. And voila! A new "daughter" is born.


But there is no such thing as 'the true religion'. There is only the One who is the Truth: Christ Himself. It IS possible to follow Him and Him alone. To tear EVERYTHING down, straight down to the cornerstone (Christ), then let Him build you back up on Him ALONE. Because that is the ONLY house that is going to stand when the wind and rains come, the house that is built on the Rock (the Rock being Christ).

As God has said:

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

As that Son has promised:

"Whoever has [my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and reveal myself to them."


“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with(in) him."




I know these promises are true, because my dear Lord kept them with me.



**


I did click on your link and read the articles of faith. I have some comments and questions if I may (and I do hold all things up against Christ, the Light):

We hold that the universe consists of three planes: the physical plane, the astral plane, and heaven.

Where did Christ speak of this 'astral' plane?

The basic purpose of all human beings is to transform our spirit into Christ. Christ is God conscious of Himself from within His creation. Christ represents the union of man and God.

Where did Christ teach a) the purpose of all humans is to transform our spirit into Christ; b) that Christ is God conscious of Himself from within His creation, and c) that Christ represents the union of man and God.

We assert that Jesus Christ was a physical man living on earth who was the first among us to transform into Christ. Thus, his life and teachings are the instructions we follow for our own transformation.

Christ (whom most call "Jesus") was indeed a physical man living on earth. But He IS the Christ (meaning Anointed One). How does He transform into Himself?

The Veridican Church recognizes the following texts as our canon of scripture: The Gospel of Matthew, The Gospel of Mark, The Gospel of Luke, The Gospel of John, and the book of Revelation (King James Version of 1611, and the New International Version, 1984 ed.), The Gospel of Thomas (Meyer and Bloom, 1992 ed.), and The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ (Gordon, 2012 ed.).

So you accept certain writings as your canon of scripture (including your own), but is that something Christ taught? If so, where? Or, as even those gospels attest, did Christ simply state, "Come! Follow ME!"


{{{{Just an fyi: scripture is that which is inspired (something given/received "in spirit"). Christ said that scripture included: "The Psalms, the Prophets, the law of Moses" (Luke 24:44-46). If you read the introductions from many of the prophets, you will see that they begin by stating the "Word of [the LORD] came to" (insert name of the prophet here). So the prophets wrote scripture, and Christ attests to the fact that the prophets are indeed scripture. Revelation IS inspired also, however, because John received it while in the spirit, and he was TOLD to write down what he saw and heard. That writing is inspired (given/received "in spirit").

On the other hand, Matthew, Mark, Luke and "John" are testimonial accounts. These are writings that eyewitnesses wrote down (such as in the case of the gospel commonly attributed to "John"), or that eyewitnesses passed down to others who later recorded it (such as in the case of Luke, who was not an eyewitness, but who said up front that he wrote his letter after carefully investigating everything that was handed down from others who were eyewitnesses). Matthew, Mark, Luke and "John" are not scripture. That doesn't make them untrue, but scripture is inspired.

Scripture or not, everything written is subject to copyist errors, translation errors (see even Jeremiah 8:8).}}}}

Because it is every human being’s ultimate purpose in life to be transformed into Christ, we accept as our mandate the work of convincing others to enter the one true Church, the Veridican Church of the Divine in Christ. We employ our spiritual gifts and unique practices to prove our Divine calling and our status as the chosen apostles of Christ.

But the One True Church existed long before the "Veridican Church" ever existed, yes?

Or do you disagree that the Church is the Body of Christ, made of people who are in Him, His Bride?

How can you start a new church and call it the One True Church, if the One True Church already existed?

It has been revealed to us by God that mRNA vaccines fulfill the prophecy of John in Revelation 9:13-19. We hold that they are a weapon of the antichrist intended to destroy a significant portion of humanity which will allow the antichrist to come to power. We, therefore, prohibit our members from taking any mRNA vaccine, specifically the COVID-19 mRNA vaccine. We hold that willfully taking such a vaccine is a sin and places one's body and soul in jeopardy.

To the bold in particular - I am sorry, but this is absolutely 100% false.

A - you can believe whatever you want (same as any other person is free to believe as they choose), but who are you to prohibit anyone from anything? Truly? Is the Church yours? Does the Bride belong to you? Because I thought - foolish thing that I am - that the Church, the Bride, belongs to Christ.

B - LOVE covers over a multitude of sins. (see 1Peter 4:8; Proverbs 10:12, if you do not believe me.) EVEN IF taking a vaccine was a sin - if one took that vaccine out of love for one's neighbor, to help protect others, that sin would be covered over by the love behind the person's action.

LOVE is the LAW that is from God, from the beginning, against which there is no law (Galatians 5:22, 23). Christ emphasized that the two most important commandments were to love God with your whole heart, mind, soul; and to love your neighbor as yourself. He said also to love even your enemies. And to love one another as He has loved us.


There are many things that put a person's body in danger. But taking a vaccine out of love for one's neighbor, to help protect others, this does not put the 'soul' in danger. I am okay with having had the vaccine, because even if I had been one of the few who had a very rare but serious side effect, it still would not have been the wrong thing to do, because I made that decision from love for others. I have absolutely NO FEAR whatsoever that I (the spirit, the person, I truly am) would be in jeopardy. I know I belong to Christ (not because I am good or special or because "I" say so, but because that Son chose me). I urge anyone (who is afraid that this teaching might be true) to test this against the Light (Christ), take this matter to Christ and to God, test this - and all things - against LOVE.

TEST ALL THINGS against the LIGHT (who is Christ).

That is what my dear Lord taught me many years back. Test the claims that people make... test the inspired expression against Him, His words, His teaching, His example.

Test against Him first. He is the Truth. Nothing true can be against Him.

Test against love. Because God is love. Nothing against love will be from God.


And tell me, how is your prohibition against a particular vaccine any different than the WTS prohibition against blood transfusions (or before that, organ transplant)? How many people died because of this prohibition?

1. Abide the commands that God gives to you.
2. Follow the teachings of Christ to the best of your understanding.
3. Love your neighbor by doing unto them what you would have done unto you.
4. Resist participation in abortions.
5. Treat animals with compassion.
6. Partake in the Eucharist.
7. Support the Veridican Church.
8. Follow natural law as best you can.

I love that you include treating animals with compassion in your list of rules. The red flag is in rule 7 though. Because that will end up being the only rule that matters.


And finally, at the end of your 'articles of faith', you identify as high priest.

Ed, there is only one high priest.

That High Priest is Christ.

He is THE - and MY - High Priest. No one else.



May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear, so as to hear the truth of these matters from the TRUTH, Himself, Christ Jaheshua, the Holy and Chosen One of JAH. If you do not yet hear His voice, then ASK for ears to hear, ASK for faith, keep knocking and keep seeking, and the door will be opened.


May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"


Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Veridican]

First:

All I'm saying is it seems strange that, apparently, until me, no one has ever thought of just following the life and teachings of Jesus Christ--solely.

I find it strange that you think no one has ever thought of just following the life and teachings of [Jesus] Christ - solely, until you. Do you really think that is true? Even so, it comes up just a bit short... because He said "Come, Follow me!" Not just His life and teachings, but He, Himself.

I'm all ears. If you know of a religious cult, sect, anything that follows only Jesus' teachings, please tell me. I will drop what I'm doing and join them.

And surely you must agree that just because you (or someone else) starts a religion making the CLAIM that "we follow [Jesus] Christ and Him alone", doesn't mean you're truly doing that. What you have done looks exactly the same as what every other religion out there has done, making creeds, inserting your own rules and interpretations, using the name "Jesus", seeking to gain adherents for a religion - which takes the focus off of Christ. And voila! A new "daughter" is born.

Why would it take the focus OFF of Christ. We put all the focus ON Christ. And are we truly following Christ? Yes. Are we matured into the fullness of Christ, no. But at least we are there and growing.

But there is no such thing as 'the true religion'. There is only the One who is the Truth: Christ Himself. It IS possible to follow Him and Him alone. To tear EVERYTHING down, straight down to the cornerstone (Christ), then let Him build you back up on Him ALONE. Because that is the ONLY house that is going to stand when the wind and rains come, the house that is built on the Rock (the Rock being Christ).

That sounds very Veridican.

As God has said:

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

As that Son has promised:

"Whoever has [my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and reveal myself to them."


“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with(in) him."




I know these promises are true, because my dear Lord kept them with me.

That sounds great. But...you're still elevating the teachings of Paul and ...Micah... to the same level as the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, right? You not really FAITHFUL to just Jesus, are you? ...or are you?

**


I did click on your link and read the articles of faith. I have some comments and questions if I may (and I do hold all things up against Christ, the Light):

We hold that the universe consists of three planes: the physical plane, the astral plane, and heaven.

Where did Christ speak of this 'astral' plane?

He didn't use that term. He alluded to it. There is the Earth, the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Heaven. The Articles of Faith probably needs a different term than "astral plane." But it is actually very accurate, and we are a little New Agey in some respects. We do consider ourselves to follow in the spirit of the Magi who first found Christ and also protected him.

The basic purpose of all human beings is to transform our spirit into Christ. Christ is God conscious of Himself from within His creation. Christ represents the union of man and God.

Where did Christ teach a) the purpose of all humans is to transform our spirit into Christ; b) that Christ is God conscious of Himself from within His creation, and c) that Christ represents the union of man and God.

It's all over the Gospels, in all kinds of ways. And I'm not going to turn this post into a master's thesis for you to scroll through. So... just don't believe it. What difference does it make to you. If I wrote the thesis for you, you still wouldn't believe it, so just scroll on by...

We assert that Jesus Christ was a physical man living on earth who was the first among us to transform into Christ. Thus, his life and teachings are the instructions we follow for our own transformation.

Christ (whom most call "Jesus") was indeed a physical man living on earth. But He IS the Christ (meaning Anointed One). How does He transform into Himself?

...hmmm. That's a good point. I'm making a sticky note to re-examine that article. It's not wrong, per se, but it needs clarification, because we do actually hold that he was Christ from birth, born of a virgin, the only begotten Son of God, and the whole reason there was a Star of Bethlehem for the Magi to follow.

The Veridican Church recognizes the following texts as our canon of scripture: The Gospel of Matthew, The Gospel of Mark, The Gospel of Luke, The Gospel of John, and the book of Revelation (King James Version of 1611, and the New International Version, 1984 ed.), The Gospel of Thomas (Meyer and Bloom, 1992 ed.), and The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ (Gordon, 2012 ed.).

So you accept certain writings as your canon of scripture (including your own), but is that something Christ taught? If so, where? Or, as even those gospels attest, did Christ simply state, "Come! Follow ME!"

Jesus said he was our only Teacher. That's it. The VGJC is not a new Gospel, it's a Gospel harmony.

{{{{Just an fyi: scripture is that which is inspired (something given/received "in spirit"). Christ said that scripture included: "The Psalms, the Prophets, the law of Moses" (Luke 24:44-46). If you read the introductions from many of the prophets, you will see that they begin by stating the "Word of [the LORD] came to" (insert name of the prophet here). So the prophets wrote scripture, and Christ attests to the fact that the prophets are indeed scripture. Revelation IS inspired also, however, because John received it while in the spirit, and he was TOLD to write down what he saw and heard. That writing is inspired (given/received "in spirit").

On the other hand, Matthew, Mark, Luke and "John" are testimonial accounts. These are writings that eyewitnesses wrote down (such as in the case of the gospel commonly attributed to "John"), or that eyewitnesses passed down to others who later recorded it (such as in the case of Luke, who was not an eyewitness, but who said up front that he wrote his letter after carefully investigating everything that was handed down from others who were eyewitnesses). Matthew, Mark, Luke and "John" are not scripture. That doesn't make them untrue, but scripture is inspired.

Scripture or not, everything written is subject to copyist errors, translation errors (see even Jeremiah 8:8).}}}}

So say you. We follow only Jesus Christ, his life and teachings. So, that's all that we canonize. Even if "Jude" is "God's Word" that's great, we only follow the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Jude would be for someone else, not Veridicans. BUT... we don't take that attitude toward the Bible. We read the Bible. But when it comes down to it, Jesus' life and teachings trump everything else. Of course, Jesus talked about the Psalms. And I love the Psalms. But that was for him. "We" follow his life and teachings. Those are for us (Veridicans).

That's it for me for tonight.

[Avoice]

Why is it that obeying the God of Israel isn't top priority? He never told you to worship his creation (Jesus)
What's up with this? Dont like the God of Israel or his laws? Or what? I mean come on now.... You refuse to obey God and won't keep his Sabbath. Instead you call the Sabbath Sunday which honors Constantine of Rome. He made Sunday the day of worship in his empire. Of course he chose Sunday. He was raised as pagan who worshipped the Sun god. Hence, SUNday.

[tam]

Peace to you all.

I was waiting to see if you were going to respond to the rest of my post, but that has not happened yet. Perhaps at some point, but in the meantime...

First:

All I'm saying is it seems strange that, apparently, until me, no one has ever thought of just following the life and teachings of Jesus Christ--solely.

I find it strange that you think no one has ever thought of just following the life and teachings of [Jesus] Christ - solely, until you. Do you really think that is true? Even so, it comes up just a bit short... because He said "Come, Follow me!" Not just His life and teachings, but He, Himself.

I'm all ears. If you know of a religious cult, sect, anything that follows only Jesus' teachings, please tell me. I will drop what I'm doing and join them.

Why does a religious cult or sect have to be involved to begin with?

And surely you must agree that just because you (or someone else) starts a religion making the CLAIM that "we follow [Jesus] Christ and Him alone", doesn't mean you're truly doing that. What you have done looks exactly the same as what every other religion out there has done, making creeds, inserting your own rules and interpretations, using the name "Jesus", seeking to gain adherents for a religion - which takes the focus off of Christ. And voila! A new "daughter" is born.

Why would it take the focus OFF of Christ. We put all the focus ON Christ. And are we truly following Christ? Yes. Are we matured into the fullness of Christ, no. But at least we are there and growing.

Do you though (put the focus on Christ)?

Or do you put the focus on your religion, the religion you started, that you thought up, that you created 'creeds' for?

But there is no such thing as 'the true religion'. There is only the One who is the Truth: Christ Himself. It IS possible to follow Him and Him alone. To tear EVERYTHING down, straight down to the cornerstone (Christ), then let Him build you back up on Him ALONE. Because that is the ONLY house that is going to stand when the wind and rains come, the house that is built on the Rock (the Rock being Christ).

That sounds very Veridican.

I don't think I can agree with that, Ed. And please note the part in bold.

As God has said:

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him."

As that Son has promised:

"Whoever has [my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and reveal myself to them."


“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with(in) him."




I know these promises are true, because my dear Lord kept them with me.

That sounds great. But...you're still elevating the teachings of Paul and ...Micah... to the same level as the life and teachings of Jesus Christ, right? You not really FAITHFUL to just Jesus, are you? ...or are you?

I follow and am faithful to Christ. The actual person.

I don't know what you are referring to with regard to Micah... and there is nothing in the quotes above that are even from Paul (who I do not place equal to or above Christ).

The basic purpose of all human beings is to transform our spirit into Christ. Christ is God conscious of Himself from within His creation. Christ represents the union of man and God.

Where did Christ teach a) the purpose of all humans is to transform our spirit into Christ; b) that Christ is God conscious of Himself from within His creation, and c) that Christ represents the union of man and God.

It's all over the Gospels, in all kinds of ways. And I'm not going to turn this post into a master's thesis for you to scroll through. So... just don't believe it. What difference does it make to you. If I wrote the thesis for you, you still wouldn't believe it, so just scroll on by...

I would expect a religion that claims to follow Christ and Christ alone - and a person who claims to be the only person in two thousand years to have ever thought of starting a religion to follow Christ and Christ alone - to at least be able (and/or willing) to support its claims WITH the word and teachings of Christ.

The Veridican Church recognizes the following texts as our canon of scripture: The Gospel of Matthew, The Gospel of Mark, The Gospel of Luke, The Gospel of John, and the book of Revelation (King James Version of 1611, and the New International Version, 1984 ed.), The Gospel of Thomas (Meyer and Bloom, 1992 ed.), and The Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ (Gordon, 2012 ed.).

So you accept certain writings as your canon of scripture (including your own), but is that something Christ taught? If so, where? Or, as even those gospels attest, did Christ simply state, "Come! Follow ME!"

Jesus said he was our only Teacher. That's it. The VGJC is not a new Gospel, it's a Gospel harmony.

You didn't answer my question.

{{{{Just an fyi: scripture is that which is inspired (something given/received "in spirit"). Christ said that scripture included: "The Psalms, the Prophets, the law of Moses" (Luke 24:44-46). If you read the introductions from many of the prophets, you will see that they begin by stating the "Word of [the LORD] came to" (insert name of the prophet here). So the prophets wrote scripture, and Christ attests to the fact that the prophets are indeed scripture. Revelation IS inspired also, however, because John received it while in the spirit, and he was TOLD to write down what he saw and heard. That writing is inspired (given/received "in spirit").

On the other hand, Matthew, Mark, Luke and "John" are testimonial accounts. These are writings that eyewitnesses wrote down (such as in the case of the gospel commonly attributed to "John"), or that eyewitnesses passed down to others who later recorded it (such as in the case of Luke, who was not an eyewitness, but who said up front that he wrote his letter after carefully investigating everything that was handed down from others who were eyewitnesses). Matthew, Mark, Luke and "John" are not scripture. That doesn't make them untrue, but scripture is inspired.

Scripture or not, everything written is subject to copyist errors, translation errors (see even Jeremiah 8:8).}}}}

So say you. We follow only Jesus Christ, his life and teachings. So, that's all that we canonize.

I gave support for the things that I wrote, including Christ's words about what was scripture (to that point), and including the verse from Jeremiah which speaks to the lying pen of the scribes (though Christ also said 'woe to you scribes'.)

Even if "Jude" is "God's Word" that's great, we only follow the life and teachings of Jesus Christ.

Jude is not God's Word.

Christ is God's Word.

We are to follow Him (the actual person).



Peace again to you, and to you all.

[2timothy316]

Jude is not God's Word.

Christ is God's Word.

Something that only you hear right? Because Jesus wrote nothing. So how do you know that what Jude wrote didn't come from Jesus? Which BTW where does Jesus get his direction?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Jude is not God's Word.

Christ is God's Word.

Something that only you hear right?

Of course not. (John 10:27)

Regardless, God's Word is Christ.

Rev 19:13
John 1:14

Because Jesus wrote nothing.

What does that have to do with the fact that God's Word is Christ?

So how do you know that what Jude wrote didn't come from Jesus?

Even if he did, that would not make Jude God's Word.

God's Word is Christ. In your scenario, Jude would only have been relaying what he received FROM the Word of God (Christ).

Which BTW where does Jesus get his direction?

Christ gets His direction from His Father.

He is the Word of God.

Peace again to you.