When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?
If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.
We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.
Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29
Paradise on Earth
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2181Peace to you,
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
And,
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
Clearly, some are alive and caught up when Christ returns (descends from heaven). The dead rise first, then 'we who are alive and remain' are caught up together with them (the dead who are the first to rise), in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
This occurs when Christ returns, something that has not yet happened.
Peace again to you.
That is not what Paul said:onewithhim wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 11:10 am [Replying to tam in post #2175]
The people with the earthly hope will not all have died when Armageddon comes, but those with the heavenly hope will have died, so they can come back with Christ when he comes to wage God's war at Armageddon. That is what a close examination of the scriptures tells us.
.
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.
And,
Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
Clearly, some are alive and caught up when Christ returns (descends from heaven). The dead rise first, then 'we who are alive and remain' are caught up together with them (the dead who are the first to rise), in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
This occurs when Christ returns, something that has not yet happened.
Peace again to you.
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2182Wrong on both accounts.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Fri Jan 21, 2022 5:03 pm WHY DID PAUL SAY THE APPOINTED WOULD NOT SLEEP IF SLEEP IS A METAPHOR FOR DEATH?
CONCLUSION: Paul was not saying the anointed will not die, he was saying they would not SLEEP, ie they would not spend more than a split nanosecond (the twinkling of an eye, ie. A blink) in that condition before being returned to life in spirit form.Sleeping equals the period of time AFTER YOU DIE that you remain in that condition.
JW
Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.
Two "deaths" are defined in the Bible -- the first and the second.
The first death is appointed to every human who ever lived:
Just as every man will die their first death, likewise, everyone who ever died will be resurrected to life again:Hebrews 9:27 wrote:And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
If true death is permanent, then our first death is not death at all, as it does not meet the definition of death. That is, it is not final or permanent. We will all live again following our first "death."[I Corinthians 15:22-23 wrote:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Thus, when the first death of any man is discussed in the Bible, the words used to describe that event are sleep, slumber, or rest. Only man, among all the animals is said to sleep, slumber, or rest when he dies. Rest in peace. RIP.
In fact, when Jesus raised people from the dead, He often stated they were not dead, but simply asleep:
When pressed, Jesus spoke plainly and stated that Lazarus was indeed dead. Plainly indicates that Jesus spoke in terms of how man understands death:John 11:11 wrote:Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
The second possibly death is spoken of as a death in the Bible. There is no coming back to any life after being cast into the lake of fire and suffering the second death. Therefore, it is a true permanent death:John 11:14 wrote:Then Jesus said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. (John 11:14)
Revelation 20:14-15 wrote:And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2183Yes Paul says those alive when Christ returns will be "caught up in the air" to meet Jesus:
- Does Paul actually >> say << "they do not die"?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Jan 22, 2022 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2184Yes so we have established four facts
ALIVE AS HUMANS IN THE FLESH ====>A "CHANGE" ==== ALIVE AS SPIRITS (MEET JESUS)FACT #1 They are alive when Christ returns
FACT #2 They are will be caught up in the air
FACT #3 Paul says something happens to them (very quickly) a "change" ( see 1 Cor 15:52).
FACT #4 They meet Jesus (We can reasonably deduce that they are alive when they meet the Lord).
QUESTION:
According to scripture, what is NECESSARY in order to "change" from being mortal physical humans to mighty spiritual creatures?
1 CORINTHIANS 15: 35, 36, 44
Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?” You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies ... It is sown a physical body; it is raised up a spiritual body.
JW
RELATED POSTS
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Do Pauls words that some would not SLEEP not mean that they would not DIE?
viewtopic.php?p=1064110#p1064110
Are the "Great Crowd" caught up to be with Jesus?
viewtopic.php?p=1039502#p1039502
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2185Peace to you,
Despite the gymnastics employed earlier to suggest that sleep (as death) only applies to a person being dead longer than a nanosecond.
If you want to add in 'we who are alive and remain first die and are then caught up', well, that is not something that Paul said.
**
Note also that these things happen at once, at the last trump, when Christ returns (He returns with those who have died in Him... and... gathers up to Himself those who are yet alive on the earth). It is not a process that occurs over a century (adding one more year each year we get father and farther away from "1914").
Peace again to you.
Yes, when He said 'we will not all sleep'.JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:10 amYes Paul says those alive when Christ returns will be "caught up in the air" to meet Jesus:
- Does Paul actually >> say << "they do not die"?
Despite the gymnastics employed earlier to suggest that sleep (as death) only applies to a person being dead longer than a nanosecond.
If you want to add in 'we who are alive and remain first die and are then caught up', well, that is not something that Paul said.
**
Note also that these things happen at once, at the last trump, when Christ returns (He returns with those who have died in Him... and... gathers up to Himself those who are yet alive on the earth). It is not a process that occurs over a century (adding one more year each year we get father and farther away from "1914").
Peace again to you.
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2186Peace to you,
I'm not sure what the pawn shop has to do with it, but Paul and all the rest died.
Someone died for them so that they can live (receive a resurrection, have eternal life, be forgiven, even never descend to the world of the dead, but instead go 'under the altar', though they yet sleep there...)
What do you mean?
I am just a servant, a witness to Christ.
Peace again to you.
As far as I understand, he died (same as the little girl that died, whom Christ said was sleeping, and who He woke up). Lazarus was not resurrected into the new body.2ndpillar2 wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:12 pmIs Lazarus alive today, or did he die?tam wrote: ↑Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:10 pm Peace again to you.
Christ used the same metaphor when describing Lazarus as having fallen asleep, though Lazarus had actually died.
So if you want to say it is merely my opinion, well then, I guess your opinion has been noted.
After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.”
His disciples replied, “Lord, if he is sleeping, he will get better.” They thought that [Jesus] was talking about actual sleep, but He was speaking about the death of Lazarus.
So [Jesus] told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead,
Peace again.
Are Paul and his listeners dead today, or down at the pawn shop trying to scope a bargain?
I'm not sure what the pawn shop has to do with it, but Paul and all the rest died.
All men sin, so yes.Does everyone die for their own iniquities (Jeremiah 31:30),
or does someone die for them, so they can live until they die?
Someone died for them so that they can live (receive a resurrection, have eternal life, be forgiven, even never descend to the world of the dead, but instead go 'under the altar', though they yet sleep there...)
What is your actual message?
What do you mean?
I am just a servant, a witness to Christ.
I'm not sure I understand what you are asking. That might be because I am not a jw, and your question only applies to their beliefs.Or more interesting, the JWs apparently, do not sleep once they die, how does that work, when the dead cannot think (Ecclesiastes), not that you are a JW, but you might know?
Peace again to you.
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2187I think we can all appreciate your aversion to attributing a word to Paul that he did not actually write.and not swopping one word and replacing it with another.
- Does Paul actually >> say << "they do not die"?
Your response has been noted ,
Thank you for your participation, goodbye
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Jan 24, 2022 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2188JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Sat Jan 22, 2022 12:43 am
QUESTION:
According to scripture, what is NECESSARY in order to "change" from being mortal physical humans to mighty spiritual creatures?
Mortal physical humans must be born again of the Spirit to become mighty spiritual creatures:
Jesus Christ wrote:
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (John 3:6-7)
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2189[Replying to myth-one.com in post #2188]
It is clear that Paul spoke of those anointed that had died from his time until the last days would "sleep" in death. There would be those of the anointed who would still be alive when Jesus came back. Those ones would die and then immediately be raised up to heaven to be with Jesus, AFTER the others had been resurrected. Very simple, and according to the scriptures.
People with the earthly hope and who died will be resurrected during the Millennial Reign. Some who are alive at Armageddon will go right on into the new system without ever dying. It takes a sharp eye to discern these truths, and someone who is willing to think deeply about this. The scriptures actually do not say what has been taught for centuries.
It is clear that Paul spoke of those anointed that had died from his time until the last days would "sleep" in death. There would be those of the anointed who would still be alive when Jesus came back. Those ones would die and then immediately be raised up to heaven to be with Jesus, AFTER the others had been resurrected. Very simple, and according to the scriptures.
People with the earthly hope and who died will be resurrected during the Millennial Reign. Some who are alive at Armageddon will go right on into the new system without ever dying. It takes a sharp eye to discern these truths, and someone who is willing to think deeply about this. The scriptures actually do not say what has been taught for centuries.
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Re: Paradise on Earth
Post #2190Are there any thoughts on this?onewithhim wrote: ↑Mon Jan 24, 2022 10:39 pm [Replying to myth-one.com in post #2188]
It is clear that Paul spoke of those anointed that had died from his time until the last days would "sleep" in death. There would be those of the anointed who would still be alive when Jesus came back. Those ones would die and then immediately be raised up to heaven to be with Jesus, AFTER the others had been resurrected. Very simple, and according to the scriptures.
People with the earthly hope and who died will be resurrected during the Millennial Reign. Some who are alive at Armageddon will go right on into the new system without ever dying. It takes a sharp eye to discern these truths, and someone who is willing to think deeply about this. The scriptures actually do not say what has been taught for centuries.