Rejoice in failure?

[nobspeople]

[Diagoras]

An interesting topic, thanks.

I found a well-researched biblical opinion piece that doesn't shy away from describing numerous biblical passages that contradict Proverbs 24:17. It's here:

https://biblearchive.com/blog/should-ch ... he-wicked/

I don't necessarily fully agree with all of the author's conclusions, but this one statement is absolutely worth supporting:

We should, I think, act wisely in even this and realise that a robust theological foundation is much broader and all-encompassing than a mere proof-text or a blanket statement.

[Purple Knight]

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #3]

A good face I can put to this...

Curious: Why do you feel the need to put 'a good face' to this? Why not simply accept it for what's written how written?
I'm not saying you're wrong for doing so, simply asking why.

[Purple Knight]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #3]

A good face I can put to this...

Curious: Why do you feel the need to put 'a good face' to this? Why not simply accept it for what's written how written?
I'm not saying you're wrong for doing so, simply asking why.

Logical chivalry.

Logical charity is simply not strawmanning arguments and steelmanning them instead, finding the best version rather than attacking the worst.

I think there's a step beyond logical charity and that's logical chivalry - my own invention. If there's any possible way the other side could have the truth, I'm not just going to look at their argument and make sure I'm giving it all its worth, I am going to try to find that way and go out of my way to do so. I am going to defend viewpoints I disagree with, and I am going to do so more passionately than I defend my own so that they will have the best defence.

This is because if I'm right, then I can rest happily, but if I am wrong, then this is exactly what I need to do.

[Athetotheist]

[Purple Knight]

The real problem with verse 17 is the way the exhortation is continued in verse 18:

"Do not rejoice when your enemy falls,
And do not let your heart be glad when he stumbles;
18 Lest the Lord see it, and it displease Him,
And He turn away His wrath from him".

What it's really saying is that you should refrain from rejoicing when your enemy falls if you want God to keep punishing your enemy. It's advocating selfish vengeance rather than forgiveness.

It's also advocating the sort of pretence to virtue (to get the desired outcome, which is more punishment) that Christians are sometimes lambasted for exhibiting.

Pretend you're not happy, pretend you're sympathetic (when you aren't!!!) so that you'll be favoured more and your enemy will be punished more. I suspect that since God is not the enemy of logic portrayed here, that all this is, is a lesson about how to behave in social society to greedy-grab the most from your hapless enemy who is already face-down in the dirt.

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

I think Proverbs 24:17 warns against aloofness. Aloofness could spell defeat in the face of the next challenge in making a beautiful World. So the Righteous must be focused in their endeavors.

Perhaps at the time of a single (small) victory it may be easy to become bloated and ignorant and fall to the Cardinal Sin of Pride. The victories of the Righteous should come on a string and thus it's important to stay true to God so that God can lay wrath over the enemies (of the Righteous) and so we can turn to Proverbs 11:10: "When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy." (NIV)

Therefore, the word is Aloofness and the danger is the Cardinal Sin of Pride, making oneself god.

[Athetotheist]

[Replying to Aetixintro in post #8

Proverbs 11:10: "When the righteous prosper, the city rejoices; when the wicked perish, there are shouts of joy."

"But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven." (Matthew 5:44-45)

They don't quite line up, do they?

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #9]

Either there are mistakes in Matthew 5:44-45 or it comes down to context and interpretation.

It seems logical to say that you should not love evil people. So I think it's about "enemies" as brothers and sisters with whom you have an disagreement with. If you face legal persecution from the Righteous, perhaps best to just turn yourself in and face justice.

Similarly, "turning the other cheek" is between 2 friends who are discussing something and it becomes heated and one who says strongly and stands one's ground, gets smacked on the cheek, but loves his friend so much that he turns the other cheek as well, telling something of great importance.

These 2 instances are not about true enemies, I think, or evil seeps in and pollutes all of it, erasing belief as result.