Why Was Satan . . .

[Miles]

.


. . . given power to tempt man, thus leading man into sin and eventually causing him to go to hell?


.............................


Couldn't god have done it without Satan's help?


.

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to Miles in post #9]

The Bible also has god saying he creates evil

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Whether the translation is wrong or not, maybe like this instead by interpretation:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (by the absence of grace given that the humans, by stupidity, worship Mammon/Satan): I the LORD do all these things.
It is the human beings who have written the Bible as they perceive God's will. The text by human beings may not be entirely accurate and that therefore "by the absence of grace given that the humans, by stupidity, worship Mammon/Satan" must be implicitly added, like I've done. God is wholly good!

[Miles]

[Replying to Miles in post #9]

The Bible also has god saying he creates evil

Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Whether the translation is wrong or not, maybe like this instead by interpretation:
Isaiah 45:7
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil (by the absence of grace given that the humans, by stupidity, worship Mammon/Satan): I the LORD do all these things.
It is the human beings who have written the Bible as they perceive God's will. The text by human beings may not be entirely accurate and that therefore "by the absence of grace given that the humans, by stupidity, worship Mammon/Satan" must be implicitly added, like I've done. God is wholly good!

Then I assume you hold that god had nothing to do with the Bible, and it really doesn't carry any truth except for those facts that can be confirmed by unbiased scholarship. Which means Satan has no more credible reality than do Harry Potter or Hagrid, and can only be examined as a fictional character. If this is the case, then good for you. If not, then just how do you go about cherry-picking the Bible?


.

[myth-one.com]

Satan was given power over the earth long before the creation of man:

Which can be found in what chapter and verse(s)?
.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

How does this prove that Satan was given power over the earth long before the creation of man?

These events are in the Bible:

1. The heavens and the earth are created.
2. Satan given power over the earth.
3. Satan and a third of angels under his control rebelled against God in heaven.
4. Satan was defeated and cast back down to the earth
5. The angels who rebelled with Satan were imprisoned.
6. The earth became without form, void, and dark.
7. God returned and re-created the earth, and man to replenish the earth.

I would place the original creation as first.

Satan and angels under his control would come next.

Followed by their rebellion.

Then Satan's defeat and being cast back to the earth.

The imprisonment of those that rebelled with Satan.

Next, the earth became formless, void, and dark.

God returns and re-creates the earth and creates man to replenish the earth.

So Satan was given power over the earth (item 2) long before man was created (item 7).

[JehovahsWitness]

I would place the original creation as first.

Satan and angels under his control would come next.

Right, but what scriptures do you have to support that? Those you presented thus far do not do that.

• Genesis 1:1 : That the earth was created

• Luke 4:5-7 That at some point in time prior to Satan's conversation with Christ in the first century, he (Satan) was granted possession of the world.

How . ... which scripture pinpoints when that was?

[myth-one.com]

I would place the original creation as first.

Satan and angels under his control would come next.

Right, but what scriptures do you have to support that? Those you presented thus far do not do that.

• Genesis 1:1 : That the earth was created

• Luke 4:5-7 That at some point in time prior to Satan's conversation with Christ in the first century, he (Satan) was granted possession of the world.

How . ... which scripture pinpoints when that was?

<============================================>

Under man's rule and rebellion against God, the earth will reach a state of great tribulation:

For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Due to the same reason, sinning by rebelling against God, the good earth as originally created had reached a state of no form, void, and darkness before the Genesis re-creation begun in Genesis 1:3!

And now the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

But who was on earth to rebel against God before the creation of man? After God originally created the heavens and earth in the beginning, He did not abandon it to its own fate. He placed a ruler and a host of subordinates to care for the earth. That ruler was identified as Satan or the devil in Luke 4:5-7:

And the devil, taking him up into a high mountain, showed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whosoever I will I give it. If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

Sometime before the creation of man, Satan led a revolt against God in heaven:

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

The rebellion was quelled and Satan was cast back to his position on the earth:

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

What caused the original wonderfully created earth to degrade to the conditions as described in verse two? Sin and rebellion against the commandments of God produced chaos.

Mankind was created in the re-creation begun in Genesis 1:3.

Man's creation in the garden of Eden can be traced back to about 6,000 years ago.

Thus Satan was given power over the earth and rebelled long before man was created.

In fact, there was no reason to create mankind until the insurrection by Satan and the earth degrading to the point of formless, void, and dark!

Man is being groomed to eventually replace the original angels who rebelled.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #35]

Man is being groomed to remain on this earth and, under the direction of Christ and his co-rulers, clean it up and turn it into the Paradise that it was intended to be. The angels' home base is heaven, though they will certainly interact with humans here on Earth. But humans will never be angels. Does that even sound credible?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #35]

Man is being groomed to remain on this earth and, under the direction of Christ and his co-rulers, clean it up and turn it into the Paradise that it was intended to be. The angels' home base is heaven, though they will certainly interact with humans here on Earth. But humans will never be angels. Does that even sound credible?

The only way it seems credible is for humans to become angels. The tasks they will be assigned are on a much longer time scale than man's time scale.

Man can live for about 120 years, while angels are immortal.

Mortal beings are not qualified for tasks which last forever.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels...

If those humans born again of the Spirit are equal unto the angels, then they have been changed into angels.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If A is an angel, and B is equal to A, then B is an angel.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #35]

Man is being groomed to remain on this earth and, under the direction of Christ and his co-rulers, clean it up and turn it into the Paradise that it was intended to be. The angels' home base is heaven, though they will certainly interact with humans here on Earth. But humans will never be angels. Does that even sound credible?

The only way it seems credible is for humans to become angels. The tasks they will be assigned are on a much longer time scale than man's time scale.

Man can live for about 120 years, while angels are immortal.

Mortal beings are not qualified for tasks which last forever.

Speaking of those who shall inherit the Kingdom of God in the world to come, Jesus states:

Neither can they die any more, for they are equal unto the angels...

If those humans born again of the Spirit are equal unto the angels, then they have been changed into angels.

That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If A is an angel, and B is equal to A, then B is an angel.

I'm asking others if humans becoming angels sounds credible. It doesn't to me.

Angels are not immortal, and it has been proven from the scriptures---"[Christ] is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one ALONE having immortality who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:15,16)

Luke 20:36 applies to the anointed co-rulers of Christ who will be with him in heaven. Those on the earth can die but will not as long as they remain faithful. It does not follow that if someone is "equal" to the angels that he would BE an angel. That is your reasoning, and it has no basis in Scripture.

[Revelations won]

Dear Aetixintro and others,

Aetixintro I appreciate your comments and I hope others would ponder and reflect on what you said.

In reviewing all of the various opinions and comments by others it appears that there is a wide scope of conflicting opinions. Some opinions are clearly private interpretations and are not supported by scripture.

For example I observe that many have chosen to play the “blame game” as applied to Adam and Eve. For example when God asked Adam regarding eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we see clearly that Adam gave a simple and clear response to the question. He clearly did not blame Eve.

When all the facts are examined carefully it can be observed that Adam made a wise choice to partake of the fruit. Let us examine the following:

1.The first commandment given by the Lord to Adam was to multiply and replenish the earth. We should so observe that this gift of pro-creation was perhaps one of the greatest powers entrusted by God as given to mankind.

2. In their time in the garden they were in a state of pure innocence like unto a new born baby.

3. Having said that it is clear from the scriptures that their “eyes were not yet opened” for they had NO experience to learn and know good from evil.

4. It is also very clear that they were given the God given power of agency, for after telling them regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil the Lord then added the segment “nevertheless thou mayest choose for thyself”. In other words the Lord introduced to them the opportunity now learn for the first time to experience and exercise the the God given power of agency.

5. Since a baby has no memorable experience, can anyone claim that they should be judged for their actions? We must remember that such was also the condition regarding Adam and Eve.

6. It was only after they partook of the fruit that their “eyes were opened”. that they then gained the gift of knowledge to discern between good from evil. (We should observe that Lucifer in tempting Eve added this truth to his deception to convince Eve to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge. We should also observe that a second witness of this truth was testified later in Genesis by the Lord himself.

7. Adam after considering the matter wisely chose to also partake of the fruit that he might remain with his wife Eve in order to fulfill and obey the first commandment to multiply and replenish the earth.

8. We should observe the they had NO previous experience or understanding the result of their decision. The only thing we see is that mortality was now introduced to them and all their posterity. This among other things fulfilled God eternal plan of eternal progression for them and all their posterity. This also set in full operation the plan of redemption for Christ who was “foreordained to this very calling before the foundations of the world were even laid”.

9. This mortal foreordained period of testing Adam and all of his posterity which was designed by God, allowed all mankind the full power of agency and denied no one the full opportunity to, by repentance and the atonement of Christ to partake of the tree of life and become joint heirs with Christ.

My witness is that God’s eternal plan of Salvation for all mankind is in full force and has never failed

Kind regards,
RW

[JehovahsWitness]

... when God asked Adam regarding eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil we see clearly that Adam gave a simple and clear response to the question.

No he most certainly did not! Adam eleborated, preluding his admission with unrequested information.


God asked Adam "Have you eaten from the tree from which I commanded you not to eat?” The clear and unadultered answer would have been...."YES I have".

So what did Adam "add" ? "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree, so ...."

Why did he add this unrequested information? he was not asked who gave him the fruit, he certainly wasn't asked who gave him the WOMAN. So, Why did Adam mention both his wife and God when he was asked if *he* (Adam) had eaten? What does his preamble say about his attitude?



The undiscerning reader might not see Adam's words as particularly telling but there is indeed something to be learnt from his choice of response. At the very least he took the long way round, deflecting attention from his own actions while managing to implicate his wife and even God (her maker), before actually answering the question asked!



JW



RELATED POSTS


Was Adam's blaming of Eve the "original sin"?
viewtopic.php?p=1095736#p1095736

Did God know Adam and Eve would sin?
viewtopic.php?p=967763#p967763

Is God responsible for the original sin?
viewtopic.php?p=967524#p967524