"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #21

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:47 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:22 pm

________________________
Biblical laws must be applicable
Indeed, but the scripture you provided does not establish that all biblical laws must be universaly and eternally applicable . What scripture supports that principle ?
Don't have to. "All" means all/every, regardless of what you append to it.

"All Scripture inspired by God and is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives."

all adjective
: the whole amount, quantity, or extent of
: every member or individual component of
: every
: any whatever beyond all doubt
: nothing but
(source: Merriam Webster)







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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #22

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm
...Jehovah's Witnesses shun/disfellowship folks who leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.
Jehovahs Witnesses do NOT shun/ disfellowship members because they choose to leave our religion . Anyone that is a baptised member can simply stop coming to our church and after 6 months is no longer counted as a member.


source : https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/





JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


Do Jehovah's Witnesses shun/disfellowship folks for leaving their organization ? [This post]
viewtopic.php?p=1065834#p1065834

Are people disfellowshipped for internet debating?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 43#p895843

Do JWs view shunning a legitimate motive for divorce ?
viewtopic.php?p=1032193#p1032193

How do Jehovah'sWitnesses treat their disfellowshipped children ?
viewtopic.php?p=1062333#p1062333
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #23

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 1:07 am
Jehovahs Witnesses do NOT shun/ disfellowship members because they choose to leave our religion . Anyone that is a baptised member can simply stop coming to our church and after 6 months is no longer counted as a member.

source : https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40704990

Excerpt...

"For some former Jehovah's Witnesses, leaving the faith is not just the mark of losing your religion - it can also mean losing your loved ones."
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #24

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:03 am
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40704990
Excerpt..."For some former Jehovah's Witnesses, leaving the faith is not just the mark of losing your religion - it can also mean losing your loved ones."

So? So what?! "Leaving" is not a synonym of being put out (disfellowshipped/shunned), leaving is making a personal choice of your own fruition to no longer associated with the religion . Leaving is going out the door, being disfellowshipped is being shown the door (and given your hat). I see nothing in that statement that contradicts my own or more importantly with that made on the official Jehovahs Witness website; namely Jehovahs Witness do NOT disfellowship people simply because they choose to no longer attend our church.
The official policy is to reach out to those who stop coming to our meetings. Such ones continue to be viewed as our spiritual brothers and sisters. If however they choose to walk away from association, they cannot oblige others to walk away them, so their action may indeed have serious repurcussions on certain of their personal relationships; that is none of anyone's business but those concerned.
Being disfellowshipped is different matter entirely, it is a disaplinary measure undertaken by appointed representatives of the Jehovahs Witness leadership because of unrepentent wrongdoing. This is never done simply because someone chooses to stops associating with us.



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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #25

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:38 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:47 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:22 pm

________________________
Biblical laws must be applicable
Indeed, but the scripture you provided does not establish that all biblical laws must be universaly and eternally applicable . What scripture supports that principle ?
... "All" means all/every, regardless of what you append to it.

"All Scripture inspired by God and is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives."

I am not contending the word "all" I am proposing that all scripture is indeed useful but all that is useful is not necessary applicable. You may wish to attributed more to Paul's words but the fact is the only thing Paul attributed to scripture is that it be useful which at the very most is open to interpretation.

There will be no "slam dunk" moment for you if your only scripture to support the position that all biblical law must be universaly applied is the word "all" in 1 Timothy 3:16.






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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #26

Post by Purple Knight »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 6:12 pmIf we understand "the word of God" to refer to everything God has been recorded in scripture as saying, this passage does not further the argument that everything he said was law and every law he said was applicable to everyone.
I recall a bit of the Bible that says Jews aren't to eat anything that "dies of itself" but that they may sell the meat to outsiders. (But I can't find it. It looks like the translation I read is using different words than any of the search sites I'm using.)

If I recall correctly, this does prove that not all laws from the Bible are applicable to everyone. However, I would argue that exception is the thing that must be proven once a law is established, rather than applicability that must be proven. Otherwise, anyone could disobey any law at any time, saying, prove this law applies to me in my specific situation, and that would be very difficult.

You could argue that the prohibition against homosexuality is part and parcel of the whole "be fruitflies and multiply" and thus doesn't apply to an overpopulated world, but it does say it's an abomination.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #27

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 10:24 am
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:38 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:47 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 7:22 pm

________________________
Biblical laws must be applicable
Indeed, but the scripture you provided does not establish that all biblical laws must be universaly and eternally applicable . What scripture supports that principle ?
... "All" means all/every, regardless of what you append to it.

"All Scripture inspired by God and is useful for teaching and for showing people what is wrong in their lives."

I am not contending the word "all" I am proposing that all scripture is indeed useful but all that is useful is not necessary applicable.
Then give me an example of where this verse, in the context of the usefulness of scripture, is not applicable.


You may wish to attributed more to Paul's words but the fact is the only thing Paul attributed to scripture is that it be useful which at the very most is open to interpretation.

There will be no "slam dunk" moment for you if your only scripture to support the position that all biblical law must be universaly applied is the word "all" in 1 Timothy 3:16.
Not looking for any slam dunk, only a recognition that for all Christians, JWs and perhaps a few others excepted, if god's words are not qualified as being directed at a particular people or time, they are, by default, directed at all people all the time. If you don't recognize this, why not, and what's your chapter and verse evidence?



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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #28

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 2:20 pm
Then give me an example of where this verse, in the context of the usefulness of scripture, is not applicable.
DOES EVERY WORD OF THE BIBLE HAVE TO APPLY TO EVERYONE TO BE INSPIRED AND FREE OF ERROR?


No I dont believe that to be the case. Every word in the bible is valuable(useful) but not everything applies to everyone all of the time. To illustrate:
  • There was a mandate for the Israelites wandering the desert, to go outside the camp, dig a hole for their excrement. And cover it over with dort. This law only applied while they lived in camp (see Deuteronomy 23:12, 13). Thus it ceased to apply to Israelites settled in cities with various alternative methods of waste disposal.
    USEFUL: This ancient law show Gods high regard for cleanliness, the quantifiable wisdom of his laws and hot, even if worshippers do not fully understand who God asked us to do something it is always the course of wisdom to obey.
Even when the Mosaic law was in force certain laws only applied to certain people, for example ...
  • Mensruating women were required to self-isolate for seven days. This law did not apply to men or prepubecent children.
    USEFUL: This ancient law shows the scared nature of blood and life. A valuable principle for Christians. It also showed how both men and women should cultivate self control in order for their worship to be considered clean and acceptable

CONCLUSION : Apostle Paul wrote that *all* scripture is useful for teaching and setting things straight. This however does not mean that all scripture is law or that all law is universal applicable or eternally in force. Thus when the Mosaic law fulfilled its purpose and was abolished, Christian law went into force incorporating some not all of the former and containing principles and directives for all people wishing to follow the Christ.







JW






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Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #29

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:39 am So? So what?! "Leaving" is not a synonym of being put out (disfellowshipped/shunned), leaving is making a personal choice of your own fruition to no longer associated with the religion . Leaving is going out the door, being disfellowshipped is being shown the door (and given your hat). I see nothing in that statement that contradicts my own or more importantly with that made on the official Jehovahs Witness website; namely Jehovahs Witness do NOT disfellowship people simply because they choose to no longer attend our church.
Reading Comprehension. In the article, the woman stated that her disfellowshipping was sparked by her "refusal to live in an abusive relationship."

And that reason has absolutely nothing to do with onewithhim's Biblical guidelines for disfellowshipping.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:39 am The official policy is to reach out to those who stop coming to our meetings. Such ones continue to be viewed as our spiritual brothers and sisters. If however they choose to walk away from association, they cannot oblige others to walk away them, so their action may indeed have serious repurcussions on certain of their personal relationships; that is none of anyone's business but those concerned. [/color]
Ok, so you say that the official policy isn't to shun former members who disassociated themselves, however, if certain members of the congregation decide to shun the disassociated person, then that is of no concern to the organization as a whole.

Yet, there is shunning, nevertheless.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 8:39 am Being disfellowshipped is different matter entirely, it is a disaplinary measure undertaken by appointed representatives of the Jehovahs Witness leadership because of unrepentent wrongdoing. This is never done simply because someone chooses to stops associating with us.

JW
If the entire congregation decides to shun the disassociated member, then this has the same effect it would have as if the entire organization shunned the member.

The brainwashing and mind control is real.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #30

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Thu Feb 03, 2022 7:45 pm In the article, the woman stated that her disfellowshipping was sparked by her "refusal to live in an abusive relationship."
Jehovahs Witnesses do not disfellowship people for leaving abusive relationships.



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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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