"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Miles
Savant
Posts: 5179
Joined: Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:19 pm
Has thanked: 434 times
Been thanked: 1614 times

"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #71

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:45 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:25 pm We both know that they do, so why would case be any different?
See edit.

I notice you didnt answer my question: Do you think our leadership should attempt to control personal relationships making decisions as to who people should or should not interact with and to what degree?
I answer this question...first off, again, generally speaking, the WTS uses mind control and brain washing measures to control/influence its members.

But specifically as it pertains to this case..again; I will repeat..

"...correct me if I am wrong, but when the organization finds out that a member is doing something contrary to Jehovah's word, they don't pull the member aside and give him/her the discouragement "talk"?


They do this in any other facet of its members lives, but when it comes to this case, there is this "we see nothing, we know nothing" approach.

Very...telling.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21112
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 1122 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #72

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Purple Knight wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 8:59 pm [Replying to onewithhim in post #58]
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 10:14 pmNobody is suggesting mistakes are never made, but as this thread has illustrated, there are many misconceptions as to the Jehovah's Witness policy and practice. In my experience these misconceptions and inaccuracies are at least in part, due to misinformation produced by apostates and disgruntled ex-members. Could it be that attending a convention of debarred lawyers has a disproportionate number of people that disagree with the debarring process?
Of course, which is why I listen very, very critically.
Good. Of course you also have testimonies from Jehovahs Witnesses on our website www.jw.org.

Well if there's nothing else you would like to ask me I wish you an excellent day,


JW


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Feb 07, 2022 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21112
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 1122 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #73

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:51 pm

They do this in any other facet of its members lives, but when it comes to this case, there is this "we see nothing, we know nothing" approach.

Very...telling.
What is more telling is you might benefit from re-reading my post carefully.

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:16 pm
HOW DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES TREAT THEIR DISFELLOWSHIPPED CHILDREN ?
Since his being disfellowshipped does not sever the family ties, normal day-to-day family activities and dealings may continue. ... if the disfellowshipped one is a minor child, the parents are still responsible to instruct and discipline him. Hence, loving parents may arrange to conduct a Bible study with the child. - lv published: Watchtower Society p. 207 par 3
An baptised adolescent or young adult that doesnt want to go to the meetings can't be forced to do so. If the Witness is following organisation guidelines nothing else changes; so I cannot imagine what the compliant would be.

If they are being negligent in one of the above areas, then yes, the church elders may offer counsel. If it was serious it might be considered criminal negligence and the proper authorities may need to be informed. Criminal negligence would be a disfellowshipping offense


JW
You asked ....
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 5:58 pm Will the leaders then council mom and tell her "I know you are upset that your child disassociated his/her self from the organization, but to shun the child, that isn't how we do things around here".
Emphasis MINE



I Said. ...


Image



NOTE :
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm...leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.... a person who lives a Christ-like life, but decide that the Jehovah's Witness organization isn't something he/she wants to be part of and leave... for that reason alone....
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #74

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 10:47 pm
What is more telling is you might benefit from re-reading my post carefully.
Yeah, and what is even more telling :lol: is the bait and switch tactic that you are using here.

See below..
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:16 pm
HOW DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES TREAT THEIR DISFELLOWSHIPPED CHILDREN?

Since his being disfellowshipped does not sever the family ties, normal day-to-day family activities and dealings may continue. ... if the disfellowshipped one is a minor child, the parents are still responsible to instruct and discipline him. Hence, loving parents may arrange to conduct a Bible study with the child. - lv published: Watchtower Society p. 207 par 3

An baptised adolescent or young adult that doesnt want to go to the meetings can't be forced to do so. If the Witness is following organisation guidelines nothing else changes; so I cannot imagine what the compliant would be.

If they are being negligent in one of the above areas, then yes, the church elders may offer counsel. If it was serious it might be considered criminal negligence and the proper authorities may need to be informed. Criminal negligence would be a disfellowshipping offense

JW
I specifically asked you (via scenario) about procedures/guidelines pertaining to a disassociated member.

And here you are, giving me feedback as it pertains to a disfellowshipped member.

Not one time is the word "disassociated" used in your above response...but the word "disfellowshipped" is used throughout...when in earlier posts you attempted on numerous occasions to make the distinction between the two.

As tam had said earlier..

"In other words, a disassociated person is indeed treated the same way as a disfellowshipped person."

And from the sounds of things, the "shunning" of a disassociated member is allowed (although not on the organizational level), but it isn't necessarily discouraged on the personal, intimate level (family/friends, within the household).

So yeah, the practice of shunning is indeed used in some capacity by members of the WTS, as family may in fact shun disassociated members and aren't discouraged from doing so by JW leaders.

Thus, the problem persists, and is one of the many flaws of the WTS/JW's.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

nobspeople
Prodigy
Posts: 3187
Joined: Wed Nov 11, 2020 11:32 am
Has thanked: 1510 times
Been thanked: 824 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #75

Post by nobspeople »

Miles wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 3:51 am .


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.
Yes, you have a point.
Will the organization changing their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership ever happen?
Doubtful.
Why?
Because it would denote a lack of power and thus, influence. And 'the church' can't let that happen.
Maybe some will split and form their own 'JW church'. Or simply move over to scientology, as they seem to have more in common with them than another other 'group'. I'm sure David Miscavige would absolutely LOVE to have some of their money pooled into his 'group'. You know: for a rainy day.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21112
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 1122 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #76

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm...leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.... a person who lives a Christ-like life, but decide that the Jehovah's Witness organization isn't something he/she wants to be part of and leave... for that reason alone....

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:42 am
Yeah, and what is even more telling is the bait and switch tactic that you are using here.

I am puzzled why you do not see the relevance, since I am sure you must have noted I pointed out the following specifically for those, like yourself, that are unfamiliar with Jehovahs Witness procedure.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:16 pm ...as far as minor children living at home are concerned, there is effectively no distinction between being disfellowshipped (shunned) and disassociated ...
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:42 am"In other words, a disassociated person is indeed treated the same way as a disfellowshipped person."

If he is a minor living at home ... yes.



JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
We_Are_VENOM
Banned
Banned
Posts: 1632
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:33 am
Has thanked: 76 times
Been thanked: 58 times

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #77

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:46 am
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm...leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.... a person who lives a Christ-like life, but decide that the Jehovah's Witness organization isn't something he/she wants to be part of and leave... for that reason alone....

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:42 am
Yeah, and what is even more telling is the bait and switch tactic that you are using here.

I am puzzled why you do not see the relevance, since I am sure you must have noted I pointed out the following specifically for those, like yourself, that are unfamiliar with Jehovahs Witness procedure.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:16 pm ...as far as minor children living at home are concerned, there is effectively no distinction between being disfellowshipped (shunned) and disassociated ...
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:42 am"In other words, a disassociated person is indeed treated the same way as a disfellowshipped person."

If he is a minor living at home ... yes.



JW
No, I do not see the relevance whatsoever.

But I said what I had to say on the matter. See ya around :handshake:
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21112
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 792 times
Been thanked: 1122 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #78

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:42 am
And from the sounds of things, the "shunning" of a disassociated member is allowed (although not on the organizational level), but it isn't necessarily discouraged on the personal, intimate level (family/friends, within the household).
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm...leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.... a person who lives a Christ-like life, but decide that the Jehovah's Witness organization isn't something he/she wants to be part of and leave... for that reason alone....




HOW DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES TREAT EX-MEMBER FRIENDS ?

  • Family ties with household members remain unbroken despite someone being shunned or disassociated (in the sense you are using the word) . That means that a shunned /disfellowshipped minor child or partner continues to benefit from the close loving bonds such ties usually represent. "Treating someone as disfellowshipped" represents very little change within the immediate family unit; It certainly should not represent any kind of neglect.
  • A disassociated friend is viewed as a brother or sister and it is absolutely incorrect to say Witnesses are not discouraged from treating such ones as if they are disfellowshipped.
    That said, a disassociated person may go on to behave or treat the Witness in a way they personally find emotionally, spiritually or even physically stressful. If the resulting strain on the relationship means that person feels the need to limit contact or even terminate their relationship nobody has the right to mandate otherwise. Terminating a relationship is not synonymous to biblical shunning as it is not a disciplinary measure and normal greetings and interactions should be possible even if relations cool
    Unless wrongdoing is involved the Jehovahs Witness leadership have no place in such personal decisions.






FAMILY AND FRIENDS
How do Jehovah's Witnesses treat their disfellowshipped or disassociated children ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066260#p1066260

How do Jehovah's Witnesses treat friends and family that choose to distance themselves from the organisation?
viewtopic.php?p=1066328#p1066328

Are ex-witnesses forced to choose between their beliefs and their family?
viewtopic.php?p=1066408#p1066408

Are children 18 and over cast out of the family home if they are disfellowshipped or disassociated?
viewtopic.php?p=1066420#p1066420

LEAVING THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Can a member leave the Jehovahs Witnesses religion without being shunned by friends and family ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066622#p1066622

Can a baptised Witness that has already left the organisation be disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066460#p1066460

Can a Jehovah's Witness join another church without being disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066416#p1066416

Is it true some people make formal requests to be shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724

DISINFORMATION
Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:53 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #79

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

Just a couple quick comments/questions before returning to the posts that were addressed to me earlier on:

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #78]

Why do you keep using the term 'disassociated' as if it just means someone 'weak in the faith' who has stopped going to meetings, but is still a jw?

The term "disassociation" has an actual meaning in your religion... as someone who no longer identifies as a jw (and that can be made known via formal letter, or it can be a verbal communication, or it can be automatically applied to someone according to an action they might take).

A person who is df'd or da'd are treated in the exact same way. A person who is da'd is shunned NOT for having committed some kind of 'gross sin' (though that is also misleading), but for choosing to no longer be a member of your religion.

Family ties with household members remain unbroken despite someone being shunned or disassociated (in the sense you are using the word) . That means that a shunned /disfellowshipped minor child or partner continues to benefit from the close loving bonds such ties usually represent. "Treating someone as disfellowshipped" represents very little change within the immediate family unit; It certainly should not represent any kind of neglect.
The black box warning on this should be to emphasize that this applies only to HOUSEHOLD (people living in the same house) members... and MINOR children. An 18 year old child who lives on their own would be shunned by their parents and siblings, and grandparents, etc. A df'd or da'd child could be cast out of the house at 18 (or whatever might be the legal age wherever a person lives) and shunned.



Peace again.
Last edited by tam on Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #80

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:23 am
tam wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:20 am

Why do you preach? (not you personally, per se, but why does your religion go out and preach)
What has that got to do with the OP?

It has a bit to do with "C" from post 51.

viewtopic.php?p=1066155#p1066155



Peace again.
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

Post Reply