"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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Miles
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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #81

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:49 pm [Replying to tam in post #45]
There is nothing erroneous about the way JWs treat people who are no longer interested in serving Jehovah with His organization. JWs follow the scriptures closely, and disfellowshipping is something that Christ accepted as necessary to keep the congregation clean of tainting activity.

"If your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you two or more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation [that is, the elders who head the congregation]. If he does not listen even to the congregation, LET HIM BE TO YOU JUST AS A MAN OF THE NATIONS and as a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17)

If you know something about how Israel felt about tax collectors you would know that Jesus meant to shun the person who did not listen to those who were trying to help him. And a man of the nations was someone a Jew would not associate with, so Jesus was clearly supporting the disfellowshipping arrangement.
You (or rather your religion) has added to the words that Christ gave on this matter.

We had this exact conversation before. It is covered in one of the links provided:

viewtopic.php?p=785298#p785298



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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #82

Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 9:51 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:45 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 7:25 pm We both know that they do, so why would case be any different?
See edit.

I notice you didnt answer my question: Do you think our leadership should attempt to control personal relationships making decisions as to who people should or should not interact with and to what degree?
I answer this question...first off, again, generally speaking, the WTS uses mind control and brain washing measures to control/influence its members.

But specifically as it pertains to this case..again; I will repeat..

"...correct me if I am wrong, but when the organization finds out that a member is doing something contrary to Jehovah's word, they don't pull the member aside and give him/her the discouragement "talk"?


They do this in any other facet of its members lives, but when it comes to this case, there is this "we see nothing, we know nothing" approach.

Very...telling.
Brainwashing and mind control are not things associated with Jehovah's Witnesses at all. Nothing could be further from the truth. Members are taught to think for themselves and take responsibility for their actions. I've never seen a kinder, more caring group of people in my life, and I've been involved with many other religions in the past.

If a member has done something "unbecoming a Christian," the member IS taken aside and given the opportunity to explain what happened. If he admits wrongdoing, he is given kind counsel with the hope of redirecting the person away from a serious course. Even if he doesn't admit it, he is treated with kindness, though his actions will be taken into account from then on. I know how caring the brothers are, usually, as I was disfellowshipped for a number of years. They tried and tried to get me to stop my seriously sinful course of action and take into consideration the sadness I would bring upon my children (though they would not be "shunned"). One elder cried when he knew I wasn't going to stop seeing my boyfriend. After 5 years I did correct my course of action and stopped fornicating and was welcomed back into the congregation with open arms.

I had known that I would be "shunned," and I accepted that. I took responsibility for my actions and lived with it. People who object to being put out of the congregation are not accepting responsibility for their course of action.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #83

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #82]
People who object to being put out of the congregation are not accepting responsibility for their course of action.
I'm the very last one to defend any JW - the ones I knew were terrible, terrible people - but if someone joins a group (brainwashing or no) and are told of this course of action as a possibility, then complain when they this course of action gets taken against them, they really don't have much ground to stand on, IMO.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #84

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:02 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:49 pm Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:34 pm
tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:17 pm ... are you suggesting people write in and say, please treat me as a disfellowshipped person; I want to be shunned?
I don't know how they word their correspondance (that is presumably individual to each person) but yes, people do of course make such requests. Apostates and disgruntled ex-witnesses even go so far as to post their request online and /or provide templates for others.

All Jehovahs Witnesses fully understand the repurcusssions of such a formal written request (which is why, while it is not unheard of, it is very rare).

Nobody is obliged to do the above, but if they do, is it an injustice their wishes are respected?
A - just because someone formally withdraws membership in a religion does not mean that they wish to be shunned.
They know fully what their withdrawal means.
That does not mean that they want it or that they are asking for it.

That does not make the shunning justified.

Christ knew that He would be hated if He spoke the truth. Does that mean that He wanted to be hated? That He was asking to be hated?

Christ also warned His disciples that they would be thrown out of the synagogues, hated on account of Him. Does knowing beforehand make unjust actions somehow just?


And a person does not have to formally withdraw (by written letter). All of these excuses that a person could just quietly leave... that might be the case in someone who has no family or close friends in the jw religion. But what about a husband trying to leave. His wife is never going to ask him about it? Their friends are never going to ask about it? Elders are never going to come around and ask about it, or attempt to bring him back? Is that husband (or wife or parent or child or grandparent or brother or sister or dear friend) supposed to lie? To the elders who come calling? To their spouses or their children or their parents?


Does no one see a problem with a religion claiming to be the truth (or to have the truth) encouraging people to live dishonest lives so as to avoid being shunned by loved ones?


Why would the religion require silence SO much, to the point of allowing a loophole for those who remain silent... if not to suppress the truth?




Peace again.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #85

Post by nobspeople »

[Replying to tam in post #84]
That does not mean that they want it or that they are asking for it.
Probably true. But if they know this is a possibility based on a set of actions, they need to live with it if they willingly violate those rules - no one is seemingly forcing them to join.
TBH, I don't think it's right - very un-christian IMO. But if these are 'the rules', they're free not to join if they don't like the rules.
There are MORE than enough religious groups to pick from that fits one's wants and desires that don't have these rules.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #86

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 1:08 pm [Replying to tam in post #54]
Yes, no one NEEDS to be shunned. If they look down the road before they get baptized and see a disagreement with the WTS, they should not get baptized in the first place.
Yes, of course that is a good reason not to join. That is one reason I could not join, even after two years of study with the jws. That being said, the whole process of df'ing and shunning was a very brief discussion in the entire two years, and it was said to happen only for 'gross sin' (although 'gross sin' covers a lot of ground, including things that have nothing to do with anything Christ said.)

But as you said on another thread to me, there were things you did not know when you joined. There is SO MUCH information, it is unlikely that anyone could ever know it all before joining. But even if a person COULD know everything there is to know about a religion before joining - teachings IN this religion keep changing. JW 2022 is much different from JW 1922.

That is the way to not get shunned. Once you are baptized, you are expected to support Jehovah's organization.


Indeed. Support an organization. Even if it is not true, even if you come to learn that you made a mistake in joining this religion (and everyone makes mistakes, as I am sure you do not think a person deserves to be shunned for leaving other religions), even if it means that you have to agree with things that are against what Christ said. Plus, minor children - including those born into a family of jws - can and do get baptized. Without much experience other than what they have been taught since birth, they can certainly make mistakes, and later realize (as they mature, as their faith matures, as their thinking matures, as their experiences grow) that something is not right.

Yet they too will be shunned. Sacrifice, instead of mercy.

God desires mercy though, not sacrifice.
A person might get baptized to be like all their friends, but that's not a good reason.

True, but children are not known for making good decisions at all times (even adults are not known for making good decisions at all times). They're still learning. The organization, however, encourages minors to get baptized. Even makes them feel ashamed if they wait. One of your governing body members (Anthony Morris I believe) stated that if a young person uses the 'excuse' that they are not ready to get baptized at 16, then they're also not ready to go and get a drivers license.




(note also that there is some fear being inspired in the young person if they don't dedicate themselves)
They are lining themselves up for disaster.


Your organization and leaders are lining young people up for disaster, then punishing them with that disaster.
All this should be taken into consideration before making such a big step.
Even when all these things are taken into consideration, a person can realize that they made a mistake.

And again, from your own literature,

No one should be forced to worship in a way that he finds unacceptable or be made to choose between his beliefs and his family.




Peace again to you.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #87

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:08 pm
Family ties with household members remain unbroken despite someone being shunned or disassociated (in the sense you are using the word) . That means that a shunned /disfellowshipped minor child or partner continues to benefit from the close loving bonds such ties usually represent. "Treating someone as disfellowshipped" represents very little change within the immediate family unit; It certainly should not represent any kind of neglect.
The black box warning on this should be to emphasize that this applies only to HOUSEHOLD (people living in the same house) members... and MINOR children.
That is what I said (see above in bold) because what I was asked about (see below) ...
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:42 am.... intimate level (family/friends, within the household).
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #88

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:08 pm
An 18 year old child who lives on their own would be shunned by their parents and siblings, and grandparents, etc.
It is no secret that Jehovahs Witnesses practice biblical shunning, it is common knowledge (all over the internet if anyone cares to do any research at all) and we have absolutely no problem with this.


Anyone preparing for baptism goes through organisation procedures in detail (written standardized points that include disfellowhipping) with congregation elders to whose task is to verify the baptismal candidate fully understands the standards that will be expected of him and the consequences of unrepentent wrongdoing. In short, although a there are surely things a baptismal candidate does not know when they join but the basic elementary rules of conduct and disciplinary policy are certainly not one of them.
1. Any baptised witness who unrepentently practices a disfellowshipping offense (sexual immorality, criminal abuse, theft, apostacy, etc.) while associating with the congregation, will be disfellowshipped. This is the mechanism for (hopefully) moving the person to repentence and keeping our organisation clean and protect our children and others from physical or spiritual danger.

2. Nobody is disfellowshipped simply for ceasing to come to our religious services, nobody is disfellowshipped because they stop preaching, nobody disfellowshipped simply because they distance themselves from our organisation.

3. If someone wants to distance themselves from our organisation but continue close relationships with their Jehovahs Witness family they do the above. After 6 months they are automatically no longer counted as one of Jehovah's Witnesses on our records. Nobody is forced by JWs to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family.

  • What of a baptised minor child that upon reaching adulthood, changes their mind and no longer wants to practice the faith but wants to maintain a close relationship with their family and friend in the faith? ANSWER: Inform their loved ones of their decision and simply stop practising the faith (see #3 above)
  • Does simply "walking away" mean they cannot discuss their decision with friends and family? No of course not. They are perfectly at liberty to explain why they have made their decision to leave and express their wishes be respected. There is no Jehovahs Witness "gagging order" on the d'expression of personal decisions

4. The ONLY way for such a person (#2) to ensure they both distance themselves and are treated as a disfellowshipped person is for them to make the formal request for that ( usually in writing). Before this is accepted it is verified the person understands what they are asking for. This is never initiated by the Jehovah's Witness leadership it can only be initiated by the person himself.
All the above is perfectly fair and most importantly biblical.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


FAMILY AND FRIENDS
How do Jehovah's Witnesses treat their disfellowshipped or disassociated children ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066260#p1066260

How do Jehovah's Witnesses treat friends and family that choose to distance themselves from the organisation?
viewtopic.php?p=1066328#p1066328

Are ex-witnesses forced to choose between their beliefs and their family? [This post]
viewtopic.php?p=1066408#p1066408

Are children 18 and over cast out of the family home if they are disfellowshipped or disassociated?
viewtopic.php?p=1066420#p1066420

LEAVING THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Can a member leave the Jehovahs Witnesses religion without being shunned by friends and family ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066622#p1066622

Can a baptised Witness that has already left the organisation be disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066460#p1066460

Can a Jehovah's Witness join another church without being disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066416#p1066416

Is it true some people make formal requests to be shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724

DISINFORMATION
Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:49 am, edited 16 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #89

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #88]

Nobody is forced by JWs to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family.

So the person that you claim is not forced to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family, would be free to join another religion (or just follow and bear witness to Christ and Christ alone), without being df'd (or considered automatically da'd) and shunned by family members?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #90

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:23 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #88]

Nobody is forced by JWs to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family.

So the person that you claim is not forced to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family, would be free to join another religion (or just follow and bear witness to Christ and Christ alone), without being df'd (or considered automatically da'd) and shunned by family members?
Of course, if first they distance themselves from us.






See point #3 above.




JW









LEAVING THE JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES
Can a member leave the Jehovahs Witnesses religion without being shunned by friends and family ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066622#p1066622

Can a baptised Witness that has already left the organisation be disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066460#p1066460

Can a Jehovah's Witness join another church without being disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066416#p1066416

Is it true some people make formal requests to be shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724

DISINFORMATION
Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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