"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #91

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:33 pm
tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:23 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #88]

Nobody is forced by JWs to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family.

So the person that you claim is not forced to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family, would be free to join another religion (or just follow and bear witness to Christ and Christ alone), without being df'd (or considered automatically da'd) and shunned by family members?
Of course, if first they distance themselves from us.






See point #3 above.




JW

So a person can stop attending for six months and then it will be as though they were never baptized? After six months, they can join another religion, they could join the military, they could make known their faith (even if the jw religion opposes it), and they would be treated just as any other person who never got baptized?

Is that an official teaching? Can you back that up?


Edited to add for clarity: They cannot be df'd after six months of inactivity because they are no longer a jw after six months of inactivity?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #92

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:08 pm A [disfellowshipped] child could be cast out of the house at 18 (or whatever might be the legal age wherever a person lives) and shunned .


ARE PARENTS OBLIGED TO PUT THEIR DISFELLOWSSHIPPED CHILDREN OUT OF THE HOUSE WHEN THEY TURN 18?


There is nothing in the Jehovahs witness organisation directives that obliges parents to put disfellowshipped children out of the house. Indeed some parents seek to keep their children in the home hoping eventually the positive influence of the family unit will move them to repentance. Or in the case of disassociation to return to the flock.
That said, just because someone is one of Jehovah's Witnesses it doesn't mean as a family head they lose the right to decide what they will or will not tolerate under their own roof.
Family heads have every right to demand bible based standards be respected in their home especially if there are other children that might be negatively impacted otherwise. That may or may not include attending meetings. It almost certainly includes refraining from engaging in disruptive or immoral behaviour in the home.

Generally speaking, young people that are disfellowshipped wish to continue doing what they were disfellowshipped for (if they didn't they would not have been disfellwshipped/shunned in the first place) and for this reason oftentimes choose themselves to leave the family home. If that is not the case and they respect the rules of conduct their parents demand, they may well find a way to make things work.


In any case our organisation leaves family heads to make personal decisions in this regard.






JW




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Are ex-witnesses forced to choose between their beliefs and their family?
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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:51 am, edited 8 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #93

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #92]

ARE PARENTS OBLIGED TO PUT THEIR DISFELLOWSSHIPPED CHILDREN OUT OF THE HOUSE WHEN THEY TURN 18?
Did someone ask that question or make a claim that parents are obliged to put df'd children out of the house when they turn 18?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #94

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:39 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #92]

ARE PARENTS OBLIGED TO PUT THEIR DISFELLOWSSHIPPED CHILDREN OUT OF THE HOUSE WHEN THEY TURN 18?
Did someone ask that question or make a claim that parents are obliged to put df'd children out of the house when they turn 18?
Yes, I did. Can you not see my name on the top of the post?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #95

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm Brainwashing and mind control are not things associated with Jehovah's Witnesses at all. Nothing could be further from the truth. Members are taught to think for themselves and take responsibility for their actions.
Wait a minute, so are you telling me that members aren't discouraged from reading ANY outside material that wasn't first funneled through the proper organization channels?

Are you telling me that members don't view such material as "apostate" literature and should be avoided?

Are you telling me that members aren't discouraged from attending "churches"? So if a member says to you "Steve invited me to attend his church, and I will attend", that this member won't be discouraged from doing so?

Its funny, because JW's will gladly invite you to attend their kingdom hall meetings, but they will absolutely REFUSE to attend a church if it was asked of them to attend.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm I've never seen a kinder, more caring group of people in my life, and I've been involved with many other religions in the past.
I will admit, JW's are kind and caring..but so are many members of various religious sects.

HOWEVER, we are talking about JW's now, and admittedly, they are indeed kind, warm, and caring. :approve:

The only problem is; what they teach is typically FLAWED...and that is what I take issues with.

My problem is not the flock, but the sheppards (leaders) who are leading the flock astray.
onewithhim wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm If a member has done something "unbecoming a Christian," the member IS taken aside and given the opportunity to explain what happened. If he admits wrongdoing, he is given kind counsel with the hope of redirecting the person away from a serious course. Even if he doesn't admit it, he is treated with kindness, though his actions will be taken into account from then on. I know how caring the brothers are, usually, as I was disfellowshipped for a number of years. They tried and tried to get me to stop my seriously sinful course of action and take into consideration the sadness I would bring upon my children (though they would not be "shunned"). One elder cried when he knew I wasn't going to stop seeing my boyfriend. After 5 years I did correct my course of action and stopped fornicating and was welcomed back into the congregation with open arms.

I had known that I would be "shunned," and I accepted that. I took responsibility for my actions and lived with it. People who object to being put out of the congregation are not accepting responsibility for their course of action.
Understood. Your story is indeed touching. However, the organization you are part of is not of God..and the sooner you realize that, the better.

You, or any other JW on here...pm me and lets have a discussion.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #96

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:43 pmThey cannot be df'd after six months of inactivity because they are no longer a jw after six months of inactivity?
CAN A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS WHO HAS ALREADY LEFT THE ORGANISATION BE DISFELLOWSHIPPED?

Logically, only those associated with the congregation can be expulsed from it. The Watchtower September 15, 1981 p. 27 par 7 states "...if a person in the congregation unrepentantly practices gross sin, God requires that he be disfellowshiped. (1 Cor. 5:11-13). So the answer to the question is NO; those already outside the congregation ie those who have distanced themselves for 6 months or more from the organisation cannot be disfellowshipped or shunned.
Inactive* witnesses who have also withdrawn from association with the congregation (and thus is not perceived by the local community as a Jehovah’s Witness) no longer come under JW ecclesiastical juridiction.

It can be noted all JW published directives in this regard concern those within the congregational arrangement. Under the heading PROCEDURES point (4) of the Wikepedia entre on situations "Judicial abeyance" states {quote} "If the alleged sinner is not associating with active Witnesses, the elders may indefinitely postpone a judicial committee and formal hearing unless and until the individual renews their association with the congregation" {end quote}


source: https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/ ... te_note-45
[ * ]INACTIVE WITNESSES: The FAQ entry on Jehovahs Witness membership on the jw.org website states {quote} we count as Jehovah’s Witnesses only those who are actively preaching the good news of God’s Kingdom each month" "[Those who] have permitted six months or more to go by without talking to others about the truth, thus becoming inactive". - (km Oct 1982)


Do Jehovah’s Witnesses Shun Those Who Used to Belong to Their Religion?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/

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Can a Jehovah's Witnesses be shunned for no other reason but that they chose to walk away from'the organisation ?
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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:10 pm, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #97

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:16 pm Wait a minute, so are you telling me that members aren't discouraged from reading ANY outside material that wasn't first funneled through the proper organization channels?
Jehovah's Witnesses do not have to get an organisational approval before they are permitted to read something. Statement from the official website of Jehovahs Witnesses
Image
Source: https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesse ... rtainment/



Are trained/programmed/told not to view any literature that isn't of WTS nature?

No that is a ridculous claim; that would mean no Jehovahs Witness could NOT follow a school curriculum with non-witness books on it, be teachers or doctors (or scientists) , or even read a cookbook or educate themselves on any topic. This is not the case and there is no such directive. Jehovahs Witnesses encourage literacy and do not mandate against reading non-witness literature.

Is it not wrong for religious leaders to discouraged its members from reading certain types of material?

No, more than it would be wrong for a doctors to discourage his patient from eating certain types of food. The final decision remains with the individual who has the right to ignore medical advice (and face the consequences) but there is nothing wrong with pointing out the dangers of and given action.


Are Jehovah's Witnesses not disfellowshipped for reading Apostate literature

No, they are disfellowshipped for becoming an APOSTATE*.

* AN APOSTATE in JWs terminology is a " Christian [a baptised Jehovahs Witness] who unrepentantly promotes false teachings" - The Watchtower 1st April 1986 p. 31 par 8
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , SHUNNING/DISFELLOWSHIPPING and ... CHILD ABUSE
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri May 13, 2022 10:29 pm, edited 12 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #98

Post by nobspeople »

I reading through many of these posts, there seems to be a lot of 'rules' or 'guidelines' for being a JW. I don't recall having this with any other religion I've been a part of. I find this highly strange. :confused2:

Are any other religions outside of scientology like this?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #99

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:04 am
tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:43 pmThey cannot be df'd after six months of inactivity because they are no longer a jw after six months of inactivity?
DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES DISFELLOWSHIP THOSE CHOOSE TO NO LONGER ASSOCIATE WITH THE CONGREGATION?

Logically, only those associated with the congregation can be expulsed from it. The Watchtower September 15, 1981 p. 27 par 7 states "...if a person in the congregation unrepentantly practices gross sin, God requires that he be disfellowshiped. (1 Cor. 5:11-13). So those already outside the congregation are not disfellowshipped or shunned.
So the answer to all of my questions is yes?

YES, a person can stop attending for six months and then it will be as though they were never baptized?

YES, after six months, they can join another religion, they could join the military, they could make known their faith (even if the jw religion opposes it), and they would be treated just as any other person who never got baptized?

YES, they cannot be df'd after six months of inactivity because they are no longer a jw after six months of inactivity?


In all cases there would be no required shunning?


(some would still shun them on their own, or at the 'encouragement' of the Governing Body, because the religion would consider them to be 'bad association', but family members - adult children, parents, siblings, cousins, even dear friends - would be permitted to keep them in their lives and maintain their relationships. They would not be breaking any rules of the religion in doing so.)


I don't know. One would think that all the support groups for former members would be shouting that from the rooftop if it were that simple, so as to help those who no longer wish to be part of a religion, but who still love and wish to remain in contact with their loved ones/families.


Also, if it IS that simple, why make people wait six months? Why not just let the person go who no longer wishes to be a member? Why is someone worthy of mandatory shunning at months 1-5, but at month 6, they are free and clear? Why would someone be shunned for stating honestly that they no longer wish to be a jw... but not shunned if they just stop attending meetings for six months and hide their reasons for no longer attending during those six months?



**

Just a couple of comments on the rest:

Inactive* witnesses who have also withdrawn from association with the congregation (and thus is not perceived by the local community as a Jehovah’s Witness) no longer come under JW ecclesiastical juridiction.

It can be noted all JW published directives in this regard concern those within the congregational arrangement. Under the heading PROCEDURES point (4) of the Wikepedia entre on situations "Judicial abeyance" states {quote} "If the alleged sinner is not associating with active Witnesses, the elders may indefinitely postpone a judicial committee and formal hearing unless and until the individual renews their association with the congregation" {end quote}

The quote you provided states that the elders MAY postpone a judicial committee. It does not state that the elders MUST postpone such a thing. It does not state that a person cannot be df'd, shunned, automatically da'd.

(as well, from the quote: "If the alleged sinner is not associating with active Witnesses,"... What kind of association are they referring to there? We're just talking about someone who no longer wishes to be part of this religion... but this language is a bit unclear regarding the word 'association'. Is that 'association' referring to more than just being a member of the religion? Because obviously if your family members are jws (spouse, parents, children, brothers, cousins, even dear friends), you are having relationships with them, contact, discussion, dealings, gatherings, etc.)

source: https://en-academic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/ ... te_note-45


Also from the article you used as support:
Shunning is also practised when a member formally resigns membership or is deemed to indicate, by their actions, a statement, or their association with another religion, that they do not wish to be known as a Witness . Such individuals are said to have disassociated,[73][74] and are described by the Watch Tower Society as "lawless" in a spiritual sense.[75] In either case ("disfellowshipping" or "disassociating"), an announcement is made at the Kingdom Hall that "[full name] is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." This announcement is made at the congregation the person attends.[76] Congregation members are not informed whether a person is being shunned due to "disfellowshipping" or "disassociation", nor on what grounds.


So it is true that a person can be deemed by their actions to have disassociated themselves. A formal letter withdrawing their membership is not necessary, as has been (erroneously) claimed in this thread.

Were you unaware of that?

If you - an active jw - were unaware of that, then how can you claim that everyone joining is made aware of these things?



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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #100

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:21 pm
So it is true that a person can be deemed by their actions to have disassociated themselves. A formal letter withdrawing their membership is not necessary, as has been (erroneously) claimed in this thread.

Were you unaware of that?
As as already been pointed out to you, this discussion has NOT been regarding "disassociation" as resulting from a "sinful" action ( See point #1 ), but "disassociation" as described below ...
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 02, 2022 8:30 pm...leaves their organization, which (oftentimes) has absolutely nothing to do with a habitual sin.... a person who lives a Christ-like life, but decide that the Jehovah's Witness organization isn't something he/she wants to be part of and leave... for that reason alone....

Were you unaware of that?
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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