"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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Miles
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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #101

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 5:52 pm
tam wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:21 pm
So it is true that a person can be deemed by their actions to have disassociated themselves. A formal letter withdrawing their membership is not necessary, as has been (erroneously) claimed in this thread.

Were you unaware of that?
As as already been pointed out to you....
But were you unaware of the above practice?

Despite the discussion between you and w_a_v, this was your response to me (post 88):

4. The ONLY way for such a person (#2) to ensure they both distance themselves and are treated as a disfellowshipped person is for them to make the formal request for that in writing. Before this is accepted it is verified the person understands what they are asking for. This is never initiated by the Jehovah's Witness leadership it can only be initiated by the person himself.

And I did ask the question straight out. You just didn't answer it. Instead, you prevaricated:
tam wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:52 am Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:29 am
tam wrote: Sat Feb 05, 2022 11:49 pm
B - are you going to deny that you religion considers certain actions to be a declaration of disassociation, even if a person NEVER requested a formal disassociation?


People that have stopped associating with us are free to do whatever they want. We may not agree with it but they are still considered our brothers and sisters and even if they murder someone we will continue to hope they repent and return to the flock.

If they have not stopped associating and conduct themselves in a way we see as grossly unbiblical they will be disfellowshipped. There is no defacto disfellowshipping they either request it in writing (whatever their motives) or we will do it for them.
I'm not sure you answered the question.

See also the confusion and questions asked here: viewtopic.php?p=1066562#p1066562
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #102

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:21 pmI don't know. One would think that all the support groups for former members would be shouting that from the rooftop if it were that simple, so as to help those who no longer wish to be part of a religion, but who still love and wish to remain in contact with their loved ones/families.

Yes, indeed one, would think they would. Since it is in fact "that simple", one can legitimately ask if those that claim to be honestly representing the beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses in an unbias way are ill-informed or have another reason for downplaying one can leave the religion WITHOUT being shunned.




RELATED POSTS
Can a member leave the Jehovahs Witnesses religion without being shunned by friends and family?
viewtopic.php?p=1066622#p1066622

Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583

Why is there an apparent conflict between the official JWs of disfellowshipping and what is stated on many ex-witness sites?
viewtopic.php?p=1066954#p1066954

Do Jehovah's Witnesses have to hide their reasons for leaving the religion from friends and family To avoid bejng shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066677#p1066677
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Fri Feb 11, 2022 4:16 am, edited 8 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #103

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 6:49 pm
tam wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:21 pmI don't know. One would think that all the support groups for former members would be shouting that from the rooftop if it were that simple, so as to help those who no longer wish to be part of a religion, but who still love and wish to remain in contact with their loved ones/families.

Yes, indeed one, would think they would. Since it is in fact "that simple", one can legitimately ask if those that claim to be honestly representing the beliefs and practices of Jehovah's Witnesses in an unbias way are ill-informed or have another reason for downplaying or misrepresenting our religion.

So the answers to all my questions was yes, correct?

And if things are indeed this simple (which would mean that no one is ever df'd or automatically da'd after six months of inactivity):

"...why make people wait six months? Why not just let the person go who no longer wishes to be a member? Why is someone worthy of mandatory shunning at months 1-5, but at month 6, they are free and clear? Why would someone be shunned for stating honestly that they no longer wish to be a jw... but not shunned if they just stop attending meetings for six months and hide their reasons for no longer attending during those six months?"




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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #104

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to tam in post #86]

The basic teachings never changed. If someone agrees with them in the beginning, they'll always ring true, no problem. Those teachings will not be found in any other religion. Who is God? Who is Christ? How did life begin? Why are we here? Why do innocent people suffer? What happens when a person dies? What will happen to the earth in the future? Does science agree with the Bible? Can men's governments ever resolve all of humanity's problems? The answers to these questions have never changed. That is the important thing to remember when you make the accusation that JWs have changed their beliefs. No we haven't. The bedrock teachings have been taught since 1879.

So there is no reason for anyone to decide they don't agree with the teachings. That is a cop-out.
Last edited by onewithhim on Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #105

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:23 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #88]

Nobody is forced by JWs to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family.

So the person that you claim is not forced to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family, would be free to join another religion (or just follow and bear witness to Christ and Christ alone), without being df'd (or considered automatically da'd) and shunned by family members?
If anyone in the family who was not a baptized JW decides to join another religion, they would not be shunned. I have three sons who were raised going to the Kingdom Hall but who never got baptized. I do not shun them, but try to be a good example for them, in hopes that they some day will accept Jehovah and Jesus and benefit themselves with their laws and principles. Even if they don't, I will not shun them and will always love them.

If they were baptized and leave for another religion, that is like giving Jehovah the finger, and it is not tolerated. They knew the rules before they were baptized, as JehovahsWitness has explained above.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #106

Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:16 pm
onewithhim wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm Brainwashing and mind control are not things associated with Jehovah's Witnesses at all. Nothing could be further from the truth. Members are taught to think for themselves and take responsibility for their actions.
Wait a minute, so are you telling me that members aren't discouraged from reading ANY outside material that wasn't first funneled through the proper organization channels?
That is what I'm telling you.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #107

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #95]

Why would we go to another church? We believe that they are not teaching truths. We believe that we are and that people will benefit from learning them.

What are the "flaws" that we teach?

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #108

Post by onewithhim »

nobspeople wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:50 pm I reading through many of these posts, there seems to be a lot of 'rules' or 'guidelines' for being a JW. I don't recall having this with any other religion I've been a part of. I find this highly strange. :confused2:

Are any other religions outside of scientology like this?
There are less rules for JWs than there are for Catholics, for example. Catholic doctrine teaches that people can't get a divorce, yet if you do they turn a blind eye, esp. if you pay them enough money. JWs know that the innocent party CAN divorce a cheating mate and they will suffer no consequences. That is just one example. If you really looked into it, JWs are the least hung up on rules. Their concern is for members to show respect for Jehovah and Jesus and be true to their vow, not doing things contrary to Jesus' teachings.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #109

Post by tam »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:25 pm [Replying to tam in post #86]

The basic teachings never changed. If someone agrees with them, they'll always ring true, no problem. Those teachings will not be found in any other religion. Who is God? Who is Christ? How did life begin? Why are we here? Why do innocent people suffer? What happens when a person dies? What will happen to the earth in the future? Does science agree with the Bible? Can men's governments ever resolve all of humanity's problems? The answers to these questions have never changed. That is the important thing to remember when you make the accusation that JWs have changed their beliefs. No we haven't. The bedrock teachings have been taught since 1879.

So there is no reason for anyone to decide they don't agree with the teachings. That is a cop-out.
I think the cop-out is in saying that 'those changes' don't count, none of the 'bedrock teachings' have changed.

Well...

In the beginning everyone in the religion understood that all should partake of the bread and wine that is the body and blood of Christ. Then a new teaching came and most were told that they did not have the 'heavenly hope' and should not be partaking.

That is a big deal. That is a big change. That is something Christ said that one MUST do in order to remain in Him and Him in them, and in order to have life in oneself. To take that away not only contradicts Christ, but is a huge change from the earlier teaching.


"Smaller" things might include the "overlapping generations doctrine" which comes across as a cover-up for a failed prediction ("prophecy"). The false teachings surrounding that prediction (what was supposed to have happened but never did happen).



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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #110

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:34 pm
tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:23 pm Peace to you,
[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #88]

Nobody is forced by JWs to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family.

So the person that you claim is not forced to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family, would be free to join another religion (or just follow and bear witness to Christ and Christ alone), without being df'd (or considered automatically da'd) and shunned by family members?
If anyone in the family who was not a baptized JW decides to join another religion, they would not be shunned. I have three sons who were raised going to the Kingdom Hall but who never got baptized. I do not shun them, but try to be a good example for them, in hopes that they some day will accept Jehovah and Jesus and benefit themselves with their laws and principles. Even if they don't, I will not shun them and will always love them.

If they were baptized and leave for another religion, that is like giving Jehovah the finger, and it is not tolerated. They knew the rules before they were baptized, as JehovahsWitness has explained above.
Unless they wait six months first? I thought it was being said on the thread that baptized members could indeed join another religion without being shunned, if they are first inactive for six months. Then they would be like your sons, who are not baptized.
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