When I lived in Bali, I couldn't help observing the pervasive evidence of belief in demons. And of course demons put in an appearance in the Bible, not to mention in the gargoyles of old cathedrals.
On the other hand, modern science would seem to categorically reject the existence of demons, without a clear reason why, unless it has to do with the axiomatic presuppositions of science's governing ideology of reductionist materialism.
Question: Do demons exist? What evidence is there, for or against?
--
Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Scholar
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:49 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 6 times
Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #1"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI
"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0
"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14375
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 922 times
- Been thanked: 1664 times
- Contact:
-
- Scholar
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:49 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 6 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #412I would describe Ancient Demon as a good storyteller. This is something that can be evaluated by others, by reading the stories Ancient Demon shared as part of its autobiography, online at http://earthwarning.org/index.php/here-be-demons/William wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:55 pm [Replying to John Human in post #410]
Do you have a description of "Ancient Demon"?
If you scroll down through the sub-headings, you can choose a particular story and read it and think for yourself if I am correct in describing Ancient Demon as a good storyteller.
Here is a list of the sub-headings:
CONVERSATION WITH AN UNKNOWN FORCE (not a story)
THE DESTRUCTION AND SURVIVAL OF THE HEBREW DEMONS (This, in my opinion, contains too many facts to be considered a good story; the names of the various demons get confusing.)
THE DEMON AND THE PRINCE (In my opinion, this qualifies as a good story, and it gives an explanation of what has motivated Ancient Demon to endure through the centuries.)
APPRENTICE AND PRIEST (This story is about being the companion demon of a man who served at a pagan temple in ancient Rome; it gives a sense of what Ancient Demon is able to do on behalf of a human companion.)
THE FIRST CRUSADE (This gives a good sense of the ongoing frustrations that Ancient Demon experienced as part of the hierarchy of Catholic demons)
THE EARLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH
ROOTING OUT A PAGAN DEMON
THE PROBLEM WITH CATHOLIC DEMONS
UNSTABLE POSITION
AFTER LEAVING THE CHURCH
THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS CHRIST
- Diagoras
- Guru
- Posts: 1392
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
- Has thanked: 170 times
- Been thanked: 579 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #413<bolding mine>John Human wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:32 am Regarding the first question, I will limit my discussion to churches. When I was a child, approaching the tabernacle in the church my family attended resulted in a peculiar sensation, together with the impression that I should not get too close. I now understand this as the effect of the resident church demon. Of course a church may have more than one resident demon.
One way to ascertain if a church has a resident demon is to try to communicate with it. It might just tell you to leave, if you're not part of the congregation.
And how did you come to this 'understanding'?
I had to check what question I asked, because your answer doesn't address it.Regarding the second question, I am reminded of a quote from Nikolai Tesla:
"The day science begins to study non-physical phenomena, it will make more progress in one decade than in all the previous centuries of its existence."
Can 'what gives sustenance to demons' be quantified or measured in any way, and if not, upon what basis should we take its existence as fact?
My response here is directed more at the general audience, rather than John Human: Doesn't this strike you as being like a child caught out in telling a fib? Is there anyone who having read this attempt at 'reverse-engineering' some form of imagined demon visitation, still believes that it might have happened - and not just made up?Ancient Demon will now speak, as I record:
"Ancient Demon did not make a great shock. The man is able to pretend that what he felt can not be properly defined as a shock. The sign of the cross was abbreviated. This allowed the man to pretend that he did not."
I'm reminded of the kind of tricks used by those involved in cold reading that allow for as wide a range of answers as possible by wording their statements in ambiguous ways, and then 'walk back' any inconsistent details. Although here, the attempt is transparently clumsy.
A very simple way to prove me wrong: Ancient Demon should be able to describe what I'm wearing if he's visited me. Now, for anyone playing along, there are a few possibilities why Ancient Demon can't (or won't) perform this comparatively simple test, e.g:
1) Ancient Demon doesn't feel like it (not bound by the wishes of humans, got more important things to do, low on 'energy' at the moment, etc.)
2) Ancient Demon doesn't 'see' in the same way as humans do, so clothes are an irrelevance to him.
3) Ancient Demon's accurate description is somehow lost in translation, so the recorder is unsure exactly what Ancient Demon saw.
4) Ancient Demon is simply a made-up fantasy by a person. Lacking any way of seeing what I'm wearing, this person is forced to guess, prevaricate or refuse to answer.
The above list is not exhaustive. And of course, there may yet exist possibility 5) - an Ancient Demon exists who will be able to uncannily record what I'm wearing to such a degree that I'll be forced to accept his existence as real. N.B. Remotely hacking my computer's webcam might not be the answer, since I keep it covered up.
I'm not a betting person, but if I was putting any money on number five, I'd want odds of a few billion to one.
- William
- Savant
- Posts: 14375
- Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
- Location: Te Waipounamu
- Has thanked: 922 times
- Been thanked: 1664 times
- Contact:
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #414Okay I will have a look at the stories.John Human wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:39 pmI would describe Ancient Demon as a good storyteller. This is something that can be evaluated by others, by reading the stories Ancient Demon shared as part of its autobiography, online at http://earthwarning.org/index.php/here-be-demons/William wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:55 pm [Replying to John Human in post #410]
Do you have a description of "Ancient Demon"?
If you scroll down through the sub-headings, you can choose a particular story and read it and think for yourself if I am correct in describing Ancient Demon as a good storyteller.
Here is a list of the sub-headings:
CONVERSATION WITH AN UNKNOWN FORCE (not a story)
THE DESTRUCTION AND SURVIVAL OF THE HEBREW DEMONS (This, in my opinion, contains too many facts to be considered a good story; the names of the various demons get confusing.)
THE DEMON AND THE PRINCE (In my opinion, this qualifies as a good story, and it gives an explanation of what has motivated Ancient Demon to endure through the centuries.)
APPRENTICE AND PRIEST (This story is about being the companion demon of a man who served at a pagan temple in ancient Rome; it gives a sense of what Ancient Demon is able to do on behalf of a human companion.)
THE FIRST CRUSADE (This gives a good sense of the ongoing frustrations that Ancient Demon experienced as part of the hierarchy of Catholic demons)
THE EARLY CHRISTIAN CHURCH
ROOTING OUT A PAGAN DEMON
THE PROBLEM WITH CATHOLIC DEMONS
UNSTABLE POSITION
AFTER LEAVING THE CHURCH
THE CRUCIFIXION OF JESUS CHRIST
In the spirit of trade, I offer you a story and - should you read it - please identify the "Ancient Demon" from the list of characters presented.
WingMakers Philosophy 2 – The Shifting Models of Existence
eta:
Ancient Demon = 117
You Will
Duty Calls
Imperishable
Lots More
Nurture
Imaginal cells
Memorandum
Stochastic
The Father God
THE DEMON AND THE PRINCE = 201
Walk The Talk In Love
Sweet Vibrations
To Be Sovereignty
The lightest planet
- Diagoras
- Guru
- Posts: 1392
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
- Has thanked: 170 times
- Been thanked: 579 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #415[Replying to John Human in post #412]
Just taking part of one story more or less at random:
Just taking part of one story more or less at random:
I'm glad I took the trouble to visit the website. It's confirmed some of my thoughts.your linked website wrote:THE DESTRUCTION AND SURVIVAL OF THE HEBREW DEMONS
(Apr. 7, 2016 — 7:00 pm) Ancient Demon will tell about the birth of Jesus Christ. Ancient Demon and Asmodiel were both subordinate to the demons of the Roman conquerors. Asmodiel murdered two demons of the Hebrew temple as a way of ensuring that the Roman conquerors accepted Asmodiel as a subservient demon. Asmodiel and Ancient Demon were the only two demons left, with Asmodeus and another demon from the temple (Exmodiel), the one who died in Mexico. Ancient Demon was able to preserve the bloodline of the Hebrew dynasty by subordinating itself to the Roman demons. Asmodiel was able to preserve itself by murdering the two remaining temple demons. Ancient Demon participated in the birth of the child Jesus Christ, the son of Joseph and Mary.
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6646 times
- Been thanked: 3222 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #416brunumb wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:00 pmI am still curious. What does give sustenance to demons and what happens if they don't get it?John Human wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:16 pm Regarding the second question, I put the word "energy" in quotes to indicate that I was using the word metaphorically for what gives sustenance to demons.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
-
- Scholar
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:49 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 6 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #417Your question brings to mind part of Ancient Demon's above-mentioned story, "Unstable Position":brunumb wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:39 pmbrunumb wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:00 pmI am still curious. What does give sustenance to demons and what happens if they don't get it?John Human wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:16 pm Regarding the second question, I put the word "energy" in quotes to indicate that I was using the word metaphorically for what gives sustenance to demons.
Ancient Demon arranged that the Hebrew demon who had first been called would come to the city where Ancient Demon was working. This demon had been involved in a situation where its human companion had not acted according to the proper procedure. For this reason, the demon had been called as a witness. Because the demon hadn’t been involved in this impropriety, the demon was not under suspicion. It was simply a witness. However, the demon had known of the impropriety and hadn’t told anyone. This meant that the demon had violated its promise to ensure that its human companion complied with all of the Church regulations. Ancient Demon knew, because of this situation, that there wouldn’t be any way for the demon to protect itself. It would be judged guilty and expelled. There wouldn’t be any way for the demon to protect itself. The demon would likely die, because it would be starved of energy before the hearing.
This meant, if Ancient Demon was going to do something, that it would have to do it after the hearing. Ancient Demon thought, if it was going to have the opportunity to help the demon, that it wouldn’t have any chance unless there was a way for the demon to be in the energy field of Ancient Demon’s human companion. Ancient Demon thought, because the human companion was in charge of moving demons, that this might be the case. But, on the day of the hearing, it was clear that Ancient Demon’s human companion would have nothing to do with the Hebrew demon. The Hebrew demon was found guilty and expelled, with very little energy. This meant that the Hebrew demon had to find a human companion.
Ancient Demon thought that the Hebrew demon might have a chance to save itself. However, the demon was expelled at a time of night when there were no humans in the street. This meant that the demon would expire before morning. Ancient Demon wanted to give energy to the demon, but there was no way to do so unless Ancient Demon wanted to give up its own position. Ancient Demon thought of this, but decided that this would be foolhardy. Ancient Demon had made no plan to suddenly leave the Catholic Church.
Ancient Demon thought, after this, that Ancient Demon should make such a plan. Ancient Demon knew that it had no way of accumulating energy. It was dependent on the energy given by its human companion. Ancient Demon knew that the Church policy was to ensure that demons never had enough energy to make them capable of doing anything independent. For this reason, Ancient Demon was never able to leave its human companion. It simply didn’t have enough energy.
- Diagoras
- Guru
- Posts: 1392
- Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:47 am
- Has thanked: 170 times
- Been thanked: 579 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #418I notice that the quoted parts of the stories still use the word 'energy' (and even 'energy field' at one point). Perhaps there's some way to quantify or measure this, but all we get by way of answers are more stories and shifting definitions.
It's not 'energy' as you normally use it. It's not really a 'shock' or a 'sign of the cross'. It's not even 'God' in the Bible, now.
It's not 'energy' as you normally use it. It's not really a 'shock' or a 'sign of the cross'. It's not even 'God' in the Bible, now.
- brunumb
- Savant
- Posts: 6002
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:20 am
- Location: Melbourne
- Has thanked: 6646 times
- Been thanked: 3222 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #419[Replying to John Human in post #417]
Er...... thanks.
I'm sorry I asked.
<Backs out of the room slowly avoiding eye contact>
Er...... thanks.
I'm sorry I asked.
<Backs out of the room slowly avoiding eye contact>
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
-
- Scholar
- Posts: 354
- Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2019 5:49 pm
- Location: Seattle
- Been thanked: 6 times
Re: Do demons exist? Can that be tested?
Post #420Brunumb, thank you for leaving. Here's a quote from Ancient Ddmon's story, "The Problem with Catholic Demons":brunumb wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 11:27 pm [Replying to John Human in post #417]
Er...... thanks.
I'm sorry I asked.
<Backs out of the room slowly avoiding eye contact>
Ancient Demon was able to hear about an expedition to a land that was across a far ocean [America]. Ancient Demon knew, if this expedition was to be successful, demons would have to accompany it. Ancient Demon knew, if demons didn’t accompany the expedition, that there would be the likelihood of foreign demons who would act in ways that would cause chaos among the leaders. Ancient Demon thought, if it was allowed to go on the expedition, it might be able to negotiate with the demons of the land where Ancient Demon thought the expedition was going. Ancient Demon didn’t realize that the expedition was going to a completely different area.
Ancient Demon didn’t ask to be included in the expedition, but it did ask that demons be included. This resulted in Uxmodiel being selected, together with three other demons. Ancient Demon was afraid that Uxmodiel wouldn’t be able to defend itself, because Uxmodiel was a gentle demon. Ancient Demon was disturbed at the choice of Uxmodiel. Ancient Demon inquired, and was told that Uxmodiel was one of the oldest demons, which meant that Uxmodiel would be able to have a position of authority if foreign demons were contacted. Ancient Demon didn’t think that demons would recognize the authority of a demon who was part of an invasion. Ancient Demon didn’t say that, but Ancient Demon was deeply disturbed at the reply. Ancient Demon thought that the expedition was being planned without a proper way of considering how to ensure that demons were protected....