"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

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To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #111

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:39 pm
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 8:16 pm
onewithhim wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm Brainwashing and mind control are not things associated with Jehovah's Witnesses at all. Nothing could be further from the truth. Members are taught to think for themselves and take responsibility for their actions.
Wait a minute, so are you telling me that members aren't discouraged from reading ANY outside material that wasn't first funneled through the proper organization channels?
That is what I'm telling you.
Now, forum member "Jehovah's Witness" said the same thing and even shared JW material stating such.

I will ask this question again..

"Wait a minute, so are you telling me that members aren't discouraged from reading ANY outside material that wasn't first funneled through the proper organization channels?"

I ask again, and I want you both to think about your answer before I present evidence to the contrary.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #112

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:43 pm [Replying to We_Are_VENOM in post #95]

Why would we go to another church? We believe that they are not teaching truths.
Which is the same reason why most people won't go to Kingdom Halls lol.

That aside, I agree with you...that is one reason why I don't attend Church. All it takes is for the pastor/preacher to say one thing that I don't agree with, and I am out the door.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:43 pm We believe that we are and that people will benefit from learning them.
Ehhh.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:43 pm What are the "flaws" that we teach?
1. There is no Biblical Trinity
2. Military service is not of God
3. The celebration of holidays are against God's will
4. Jesus is Michael the archangel
5. Only 144k will go to heaven
6. There is no literal hell
7. There is no life after death
8. WTS is God's chosen organization on earth
9. Continual failed Biblical prophecies
10. Refusal of blood transfusions

Would you like the list to go on and on and on?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #113

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:51 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:43 pm What are the "flaws" that we teach?


1. There is no Biblical Trinity
2. Military service is not of God [for Christians]
3. The celebration of [pagan] holidays are against God's will
4. Jesus is Michael the archangel
5. Only 144k will go to heaven
6. There is no literal hell [where immortal souls are tortured after death]
7. There is no life after death
8. [Jehovahs Witness represent] God's chosen organization on earth
9. ...
10. Refusal of blood transfusions

None of those are flaws; they are all biblical teachings.
We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:51 am
Would you like the list to go on and on and on?
Not in this thread no. If you honestly feel you have the biblical knowledge to go head to head on any of the above topics with one of Jehovah's Witnesses feel free to start a seperate thread and see how you fare.

Returning to TOPIC : If someone doesnt agree with the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses they have but to refrain from joining.. If there are any doctrinal or organisationa changes that a member cannot live with they can just leave!



JW


RELATED POSTS

Can a member leave the Jehovahs Witnesses religion without being shunned by friends and family ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066622#p1066622

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #114

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:37 am
I ask again, and I want you both to think about your answer before I present evidence to the contrary.
I always think about my answers before posting. And the question being asked. You asked a loaded question (which I dont usually respond to), so to avoid agreeing to something inaccurate I had to divide my anwser into into two parts.
The first part dealt with the idea of "funneling" literature. By that I take it you mean the Jehovahs Witnesses have a screening process by with its members can only read literature that is first vetted and approved by their leadership. This part of the question is untrue. See LINK for details
viewtopic.php?p=1066508#p1066508



The second part I answered concerned a different (albeit related ) point of DISCOURAGING reading certain literature. This part I answered seperately, pointing out that there is nothing wrong with warning someone of the dangers of certain behaviours.

There is also the subliminal implication that discouraging reading certain material equates to

1. An unreasonable level of control
2. A unscrupulous unbiblical means of keeping the membership ignorant

I did not deal with these since I doubt you intentionally implied the above and I doubt anyone here will have the audacity to opening claim the above is true of Jehovahs Witnesses.


JW


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Feb 09, 2022 1:11 pm, edited 11 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #115

Post by JehovahsWitness »

CAN A JEHOVAH'S WITNESS LEAVE THE RELIGION WITHOUT BEING SHUNNED?

Yes. Nobody is disfellowshipped simply for ceasing to come to our religious services, nobody is disfellowshipped because they stop preaching, nobody is disfellowshipped simply because they distance themselves from our organisation.
If someone wants to distance themselves from our organisation but continue close relationships with their Jehovahs Witness family all they have to do is stop going to the meetings. After 6 months they are automatically no longer counted as one of Jehovah's Witnesses on our records.
  • Nobody is forced by JWs to choose between their personal beliefs and their JW family. If a baptised JW no longer believed Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth, they can simply stop frequenting the church.
  • What of a baptised minor child that upon reaching adulthood, changes their mind and no longer wants to practice the faith but wants to maintain a close relationship with their family and friend in the faith? ANSWER: Inform their loved ones of their decision and simply stop practising the faith (see above)
  • Does simply "walking away" mean they cannot discuss their decision with friends and family? ANSWER: No of course not. They are perfectly at liberty to explain why they have made their personal decision to leave and express their wishes be respected. There is no Jehovahs Witness "gagging order" on the expression of personal decisions
  • Why would a baptised Jehovahs Witness need to distance themselves from the organisation for at least 6 months if not more before engaging in unbiblical behaviour ? ANSWER: Because one of the reasons for the disfellowshipping arrangement is to protect the clean reputation of the Christian congregation. Someone perceive as being an active Jehovah's Witness still in association with the congregation but who habitually engages in what we consider serious sin would bring reproach on the name of our God and tarnish the good reputation of other Witnesses.
Those who stop coming to the meetings are not viewed the same way as people that were never baptised. They are still considered our brothers and sisters and we will forever hope they return to the flock. If they subsequently engage is unbiblical behaviours we will be saddened and accept they have turned away from the brotherhood, but should they repent and return they would not have to be re-baptised.



JW




RELATED POSTS
Can a member leave the Jehovahs Witnesses religion without being shunned by friends and family ?
viewtopic.php?p=1066622#p1066622

Are ex-witnesses forced to choose between their beliefs and their family?
viewtopic.php?p=1066408#p1066408

Can a baptised Witness that has already left the organisation be disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066460#p1066460

Can a Jehovah's Witness join another church without being disfellowshipped?
viewtopic.php?p=1066416#p1066416

Is it true some people make formal requests to be shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066724#p1066724

Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Feb 26, 2022 10:43 am, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #116

Post by tam »

Peace to you.

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #115]

Why would a baptised Jehovahs Witness need to distance themselves from the organisation for at least 6 months if not more before engaging in unbiblical behaviour ? ANSWER: Because one of the reasons for the disfellowshipping arrangement is to protect the clean reputation of the Christian congregation. Someone perceive as being an active Jehovah's Witness still in association with the congregation but who habitually engages in what we consider serious sin would bring reproach on the name of our God and tarnish the good reputation of other Witnesses.
Those who stop coming to the meetings are not viewed the same way as people that were never baptised. They are still considered our brothers and sisters and we will forever hope they return to the flock. If they subsequently engage is unbiblical behaviours we will be saddened and accept they have turned away from the brotherhood, but should they repent and return they would not have to be re-baptised.
First... I am not promoting the jw narrative, so 'unbiblical behavior' here would be "as interpreted by a particular religion".

Second, there appears to be a conflict here (the bold).

So just to clarify:

If someone ceased going to meetings for six months, they could openly join another religion (or take a blood transfusion... anything the religion interprets as 'unbiblical behavior'), and they COULD NOT be df'd or automatically da'd due to their actions? No one would be told to shun them?
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #117

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:08 pm
So just to clarify:

If someone ceased going to meetings for six months, they could openly join another religion (or take a blood transfusion... anything the religion interprets as 'unbiblical behavior'), and they COULD NOT be df'd or automatically da'd due to their actions? No one would be told to shun them?
That is correct. I don't want to be dogmatic about the six months (possibly more time would be needed according to the individual circumstances), but the principle is that neither they they nor their actions are in any way associated with Jehovahs Witnesses. There would be no reason for the local congregation to distance themselves from the actions of someone that has of their own accord done that very thing.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES



Do Jehovah's Witnesses have to hide their reasons for leaving the religion from friends and family To avoid bejng shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066677#p1066677

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:55 am, edited 3 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #118

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:55 pm
tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 12:08 pm
So just to clarify:

If someone ceased going to meetings for six months, they could openly join another religion (or take a blood transfusion... anything the religion interprets as 'unbiblical behavior'), and they COULD NOT be df'd or automatically da'd due to their actions? No one would be told to shun them?
That is correct. I don't want to be dogmatic about the six months (possibly more time would be needed according to the individual circumstances), but the principle is that neither they they nor their actions are in any way associated with Jehovahs Witnesses. There would be no reason for the local congregation to distance themselves from the actions of someone that has of their own accord done that very thing.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES

Okay... then,

Why would someone be shunned for writing a letter to the branch (or stating aloud to the elders) that they no longer wish to be known as a jw... but not shunned if they just stop attending meetings for six months and hide their reasons for no longer attending during those six months?
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- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #119

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:45 pm

Why would someone be shunned for writing a letter to the branch (or stating aloud to the elders) that they no longer wish to be known as a jw... but not shunned if they just stop attending meetings for six months ....?

Because that is what they are ASKING FOR. As has been explained submitting a formal request of this kind is understood to be reqesting they be treated as someone that is shunned; That is what every Jehovahs Witness understands and if they didn't before, the elders are charged to make sure they do understand before they accept the request* .

You will have to ask someone that took this measure why they made such a request, I can only presume it is because that is what they wanted. Even if they have done nothing, if they request to be treated as if they have done something, who are we to deny them that right.

* (request being the operative word, i.e. the person leaving is asking for this procedure to be carried out)

They ask to be "disfellowshipped", we "disfellowship" them; what do you want us to do, refuse to honour their request? JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES simply respect their wishes.



JW



Do Jehovah's Witnesses have to hide their reasons for leaving the religion from friends and family to avoid being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066677#p1066677



To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Feb 10, 2022 5:09 am, edited 6 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #120

Post by JehovahsWitness »

DO JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES HAVE TO HIDE THEIR REASONS FOR LEAVING THE RELIGION FROM FRIENDS AND FAMILY?
  • No of course not. Simply "walking away" does not mean they cannot discuss their decision with friends and family. They are perfectly at liberty to explain why they have made their personal decision to leave and express their wishes be respected. Of course they will be expected to then actually leave not remain in the congregation trying to get others to leave with them. They can explain why they are leaving and then go. There is no Jehovahs Witness "gagging order" on the expression of personal decisions.
Explaining informally why you have stopped attending meetings is entirely different from submitting a formal request to be disassociated (read : a reqest - "REQUEST " being the operative Word - treated as if you were disfellowshipped)





To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Feb 10, 2022 2:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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