"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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Miles
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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #121

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:54 pm
tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:45 pm

Why would someone be shunned for writing a letter to the branch (or stating aloud to the elders) that they no longer wish to be known as a jw... but not shunned if they just stop attending meetings for six months ....?

Because that is what they are ASKING FOR. As has been explained submitting a formal request of this kind is understood to be reqesting they be treated as someone that is shunned. That is what every Jehovahs Witness understands. You will have to ask someone that took this measure why they made such a request, I can only presume it is because that is what they wanted. Even if they have done nothing, if they request to be treated as if they have done something, that is their choice.

They ask to be disfellowshipped, we disfellowship them; what do you want us to do, refuse to honour their request? JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES simply respect their wishes.
That just sounds absurd. That also goes against the testimony that some others have given, so who is a person supposed to believe in the absence of formal documentation? And how can you presume anything about anyone's reasons when you aren't permitted to even speak to a person of whom it has been announced from the podium "so and so is no longer one of jws".

Here is one testimony on the matter:

https://jwfacts.com/watchtower/experien ... ns-who.php

The man giving that testimony was not asking to be shunned when he disassociated.


**

But even more than that: it is not just a written formal letter that can count as a "disassociation". It could be stated aloud, perhaps in response to a question that elders ask them because of their absence. (do you still consider the religion to be the truth; do you still consider the GB to be the FDS; do you still consider yourself to be one of us, etc). So that a person can lie or a person can be honest. Though hopefully a person would recognize those questions to be traps, to have a reason to df a person for leaving, rather than actual concern.

**

Personally (and I would have had no family in to worry about), I would have had to speak (and I have since shared with those who first studied with me, as I have learned from my Lord - but I wasn't baptized so there is no command from the religion to shun me). I would have to give my reasons why I could not remain, and bear witness to what I have learned from my Lord (the Truth). Because where is the love in NOT warning others? In not sharing truth you have received, your joy, your hope?


**

As for six months absence being required so that no one can mistake a person leaving for an active jw, so as to 'keep the organization clean'... appearing to be clean and being clean are two different things. The beast that comes up out of the earth LOOKS LIKE A LAMB (but speaks like a dragon aka speaks lies). Wolves are wearing sheep's clothing.

But God desires mercy, not sacrifice. Mercy is never 'unclean'. And there is no law against love.

Peace again to you.



***None of the above is meant to legitimize the shunning of df'd persons for so-called df'ing offenses/sins. It is just meant to counter the false accusations that everyone being shunned deserves it, wants it, or committed some "gross sin", or gave "God" the finger by leaving the religion, or whatever other horrible slander is being made against a person who left (including a person who left because they heard Christ calling them out, or because their conscience could no longer allow them to remain in a religion that they now see as false) These are things that all religions which use shunning and "disfellowshiping" say of former members. They are all the same, even threatening current members with shunning if they fail to follow the command to shun a former member.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #122

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:25 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:54 pm
Because that is what they are ASKING FOR. As has been explained submitting a formal request of this kind is understood to be reqesting they be treated as someone that is shunned. That is what every Jehovahs Witness understands. You will have to ask someone that took this measure why they made such a request, I can only presume it is because that is what they wanted. Even if they have done nothing, if they request to be treated as if they have done something, that is their choice.

They ask to be "disfellowshipped", we "disfellowship" them; what do you want us to do, refuse to honour their request? JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES simply respect their wishes.
That just sounds absurd.
I'm sure there are many things about Jehovahs Witnesses you find absurd which are nevertheless true. I have shared the facts, these are not matters of debate they're documented policy.



  • FACT #1. Someone that simpy stops going to meetings is NOT disfellowshipped
    Jehovahs Witnesses do NOT shun/ disfellowship members because they choose to leave our religion . Anyone that is a baptised member can simply stop coming to our church and after 6 months is no longer counted as a member.

    Image
    source : https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/shunning/

  • FACT#2 : A formal request for disassociation is never initiated by the organisation but is personal request from the individual
    Whereas disfellowshipping is an action taken by a judcial committee against unrepentant wrongdoers, disassociation is an action taken by an individual who has decided that he no longer desires to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses - "Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock"Unit 5 p. 101

  • FACT #3: It is common knowledge amonst Jehovahs Witnesses that formally requesting to be disassociated will be treated as disfellowshipped (shunned)
A person who had willfully and formally disassociated himself from the congregation [ ... ] would have made himself an apostate. - Watchtower July 15, p. 31 par 3

CONCLUSION. The above three facts, existing simultaneously mean that formally requesting to be disassociated is a defacto request to be be treated as disfellowshipped (ie shunned).

JW





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JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:09 am, edited 13 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #123

Post by tam »

Peace again to you all,

I wonder if someone can provide an example of Christ shunning someone? Including those people the religion (at that time) considered to be unclean (lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes, the woman brought to him for adultery, etc.)?

His family shunned Him ("the son of man has no place to lay his head"), for a time. Religious leaders in those days cast people out of the synagogues for accepting and being faithful to Him as the Messiah, which went against their decrees. Why is THAT the example that people are following, instead of the example that Christ set Himself?
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #124

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:51 pm Peace again to you all,

I wonder if someone can provide an example of Christ shunning someone? Including those people the religion (at that time) considered to be unclean (lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes, the woman brought to him for adultery, etc.)?

His family shunned Him ("the son of man has no place to lay his head"), for a time. Religious leaders in those days cast people out of the synagogues for accepting and being faithful to Him as the Messiah, which went against their decrees. Why is THAT the example that people are following, instead of the example that Christ set Himself?
We follow Christ's own words, as have been posted on this thread already: Matthew 18:15-17.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #125

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:51 pm Peace again to you all,

I wonder if someone can provide an example of Christ shunning someone? Including those people the religion (at that time) considered to be unclean (lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes, the woman brought to him for adultery, etc.)?

His family shunned Him ("the son of man has no place to lay his head"), for a time. Religious leaders in those days cast people out of the synagogues for accepting and being faithful to Him as the Messiah, which went against their decrees. Why is THAT the example that people are following, instead of the example that Christ set Himself?
We follow Christ's own words, as have been posted on this thread already: Matthew 18:15-17.
That has already been refuted.


But what I asked for was an example.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #126

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:46 pm
tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 4:25 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:54 pm
tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 2:45 pm

Why would someone be shunned for writing a letter to the branch (or stating aloud to the elders) that they no longer wish to be known as a jw... but not shunned if they just stop attending meetings for six months ....?

Because that is what they are ASKING FOR. As has been explained submitting a formal request of this kind is understood to be reqesting they be treated as someone that is shunned. That is what every Jehovahs Witness understands. You will have to ask someone that took this measure why they made such a request, I can only presume it is because that is what they wanted. Even if they have done nothing, if they request to be treated as if they have done something, that is their choice.

They ask to be disfellowshipped, we disfellowship them; what do you want us to do, refuse to honour their request? JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES simply respect their wishes.
That just sounds absurd.
I'm sure there are many things about Jehovahs Witnesses you find absurd which are nevertheless true. I have shared the facts, these are not matters of debate they're documented policy.

You have not provided this documented policy though.

The only thing you provided is a statement that an elder MAY delay df'ing or judicial hearings if a person has been inactive for six months. That means that the elder COULD do these things. It certainly does not preclude them from df'ing (or da'ing by action) someone during those six months if their reason for no longer attending becomes known (by informal discussions with others, or in honest responses to questions the elders ask, or in refusing to attend a jc meeting during those six months time, etc.)


Did you even read the testimony that man gave?
Last edited by tam on Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #127

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:02 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:57 pm
tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 5:51 pm Peace again to you all,

I wonder if someone can provide an example of Christ shunning someone? Including those people the religion (at that time) considered to be unclean (lepers, tax collectors, prostitutes, the woman brought to him for adultery, etc.)?

His family shunned Him ("the son of man has no place to lay his head"), for a time. Religious leaders in those days cast people out of the synagogues for accepting and being faithful to Him as the Messiah, which went against their decrees. Why is THAT the example that people are following, instead of the example that Christ set Himself?
We follow Christ's own words, as have been posted on this thread already: Matthew 18:15-17.
That has already been refuted.


HOW has that been refuted? I submit that you have NOT done so.

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #128

Post by tam »

tam wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:22 pm Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Sun Feb 06, 2022 12:49 pm [Replying to tam in post #45]
There is nothing erroneous about the way JWs treat people who are no longer interested in serving Jehovah with His organization. JWs follow the scriptures closely, and disfellowshipping is something that Christ accepted as necessary to keep the congregation clean of tainting activity.

"If your brother commits a sin, go and reveal his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you two or more, so that on the testimony of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation [that is, the elders who head the congregation]. If he does not listen even to the congregation, LET HIM BE TO YOU JUST AS A MAN OF THE NATIONS and as a tax collector." (Matthew 18:15-17)

If you know something about how Israel felt about tax collectors you would know that Jesus meant to shun the person who did not listen to those who were trying to help him. And a man of the nations was someone a Jew would not associate with, so Jesus was clearly supporting the disfellowshipping arrangement.
You (or rather your religion) has added to the words that Christ gave on this matter.

We had this exact conversation before. It is covered in one of the links provided:

viewtopic.php?p=785298#p785298



Peace again.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #129

Post by JehovahsWitness »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:11 pm
You have not provided this documented policy though.
Ses edit
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #130

Post by tam »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:47 pm
tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 6:11 pm
You have not provided this documented policy though.
Ses edit
See bold.
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