"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

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"Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.


To Note: This OP has came about more as an eye-opener about Jehovah's Witnesses rather than any attempt at disparagement. Recognizing that every religion, denomination, and congregation has the right to operate as best it sees fit under its particular guidelines, my presentation and comments are strictly the result of surprise and befuddlement after watching the video, Shun Your Family.


I've heard of disfellowship among Jehovah's Witnesses before, but never realized the extent it goes to as a disloyalty test. So, what is disfellowship?

"Disfellowship:
To 'remove the wicked
man' or woman from
the congregation
Watchtower 2011 Jul 15 p.23 simplified edition"

"Jehovah's Witnesses are disfellowshipped for practices such as disagreeing with Watchtower doctrine, smoking or fornication, if judged by the congregation elders as unrepentant. A disfellowshipped person is to be shunned by all family and friends, usually for the remainder of their life, and go through tremendous emotional suffering. Whilst Scriptural precedence limits association with wrongdoers, Watchtower application of disfellowshipping seriously deviates from Bible guidelines.
source


A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
(time mark 2:41)


....................


What really amazes me is that the organization refuses to take any responsibility whatsoever for a member becoming "wicked." Yet it does refuse to, and even tells its members refuse to as well. From the video:

"Now we're gonna mention three things NOT to do, and two of them are games not to play.

The first one is, don't play the blame game. Resist self-blame. We may think that we're at fault somehow. Remember that Jehovah holds sinners responsible for their actions. Even young ones that are disfellowshipped . . it's because their relationship with Jehovah was weak.

Avoid the "if only games." "If only we would have preached more, if only I would have talked to them more." "If only we would have done more in the organization. If only. . .If only . . . Don't do that to ourselves
"


It's as if every mother, father, and JW preacher knew exactly how to get through to their children and other members, and actually did so. Think that's true? I don't. I've never heard a JW preacher speak, but I have heard a fair number of other Christian ministers, several of whom were so abysmal they couldn't convince a soaking wet dog to come in out of the rain. Thing is, from time to time we all fail in our relationships with others, and despite the JW philosophy, it isn't always the other guy's fault. Sometimes it's our own, in whole or in part. As willing to listen as a Jehovah's Witness may be it's only reasonable to acknowledge the possible failure of parents and preachers to get through. We don't all come with the same set of responsive abilities. Some of us simply have to be approached from another angle before the message sinks in. So for the sake of those Jehovah's Witnesses who are on the brink of becoming one of the "wicked," as well as their families, I think it would be nice if the organization changed their blame game and acknowledged the part it plays in the failures among its membership.


SO: Do you think I have a point here or not?

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #131

Post by tam »

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #122]

FACT #1. Someone that simpy stops going to meetings is NOT disfellowshipped
I did not claim otherwise.
FACT#2 : A formal request for disassociation is never initiated by the organisation but is personal request from the individual

Whereas disfellowshipping is an action taken by a judcial committee against unrepentant wrongdoers, disassociation is an action taken by an individual who has decided that he no longer desires to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses - pa p. 101 (pub Watchtower Society)
Some disassociation is initiated by the organization. You say that a person is free to give their reasons informally, but those things could be used against them in a judicial meeting which could then see them df'd. Or if the elders come around and ask certain questions (do you believe this is God's organization, do you believe the GB to be the FDS, do you still consider yourself a jw).

Regardless, the shunning that comes with the disassociation is on command of the organization. Not on command of the person disassociating (either formally, informally, or by joining an organization that the jw organization disapproves).
FACT #3: It is common knowledge amonst Jehovahs Witnesses that formally requesting to be disassociated will be treated as disfellowshipped (shunned)

A person who had willfully and formally disassociated himself from the congregation [ ... ] would have made himself an apostate. - Watchtower July 15, p. 31 par 3
Yes that may be common knowledge (even though the information being given on this thread makes it appear that you could just stop attending meetings for six months and be out, with no shunning and no losses, easy peasy)... but that does not mean shunning is what a person is asking for, and it certainly does not mean that it is RIGHT or TRUE.


I have asked for documentation that clearly shows the path a member may take if they wish to leave and not be considered an apostate and/or treated as though disfellowshipped.


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #132

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:28 am
Not in this thread no. If you honestly feel you have the biblical knowledge to go head to head on any of the above topics with one of Jehovah's Witnesses feel free to start a seperate thread and see how you fare.
Well, the last thread I created on a topic pertaining to JW beliefs was that of Birthdays and Holidays...

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38510

And neither one of you guys showed up to work.

So it is what it is.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:28 am Returning to TOPIC : If someone doesnt agree with the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses they have but to refrain from joining.. If there are any doctrinal or organisationa changes that a member cannot live with they can just leave!
JW, you keep sharing with us these links on WTS policies and procedures pertaining to these topics...the problem with that is; the information shared in the links are in conflict with personal testimonies from Ex-JW's.

All one can do is search on youtube any variation of "Why I am no longer a Jehovah's Witness", and you will see DOZENS of independent people sharing their personal stories on what it was like as a Jehovah's Witness...from the shunning, the sexual assaults, the deceptions, the lies, the brain washing and the mind control.

Entire Youtube channels have been dedicated to exposing the Watchtower and Tract Society.

These are all things in conflict with all of the mumbo (no offense) that you continue to post from JW.org.

Those that have been on the "ground" are singing a completely different tune...and I tend to believe them.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #133

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:49 am
I always think about my answers before posting. And the question being asked. You asked a loaded question (which I dont usually respond to), so to avoid agreeing to something inaccurate I had to divide my anwser into into two parts.
The first part dealt with the idea of "funneling" literature. By that I take it you mean the Jehovahs Witnesses have a screening process by with its members can only read literature that is first vetted and approved by their leadership. This part of the question is untrue. See LINK for details
viewtopic.php?p=1066508#p1066508



The second part I answered concerned a different (albeit related ) point of DISCOURAGING reading certain literature. This part I answered seperately, pointing out that there is nothing wrong with warning someone of the dangers of certain behaviours.

There is also the subliminal implication that discouraging reading certain material equates to

1. An unreasonable level of control
2. A unscrupulous unbiblical means of keeping the membership ignorant

I did not deal with these since I doubt you intentionally implied the above and I doubt anyone here will have the audacity to opening claim the above is true of Jehovahs Witnesses.
JW


Exhibit A.

Remember, there are 26 letters in the alphabet.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #134

Post by tam »

Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

I suppose I should respond also to the OP if I am going to comment on this thread, yeah?
A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
Yeah, that is kind of completely missing the point.

The verses below are not saying that WE (who are in Christ) should turn against our loved ones or shun them, even if they do not accept Christ or God. We are to love others, even our enemies (bless those who curse us, forgive and be forgiven, do good to those who persecute you, etc), and we are not to turn away from our own flesh and blood (Isaiah 58:7) Even if they turn against US or cast us out.

“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Consider the real application of those words two thousand years ago (though it is the same today): the religion being practiced by the Jews did not accept Jaheshua as the Messiah. So in households, daughters were going to turn against mothers, fathers against sons, etc... NOT because the people following Christ would shun their loved ones and treat them as though they were dead - but because those who did not accept Christ would turn against those who did accept Christ. (and none of this had ANYTHING to do with committing a sin such as fornication or whatever)

Look at the example in John 9:

They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14 Now the day on which [Jesus] had made the mud and opened the man’s eyes was a Sabbath. 15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

17 Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”

The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

18 They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents. 19 “Is this your son?” they asked. “Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?”

20 “We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind. 21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23 That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”


24 A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God by telling the truth,” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”

25 He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

26 Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27 He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”

30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.



Disciples of Christ were the ones being put out of the synagogues FOR THEIR FAITH IN CHRIST. Christ is not saying that HIS people will be the ones 'putting others out of the synagogue'. He said those things will be done to those who belong to Him. Not by those who belong to Him. And He was right (of course), because some who bear witness to Christ (if that witness is in opposition to the jw leadership), then they CAN be put out of the 'synagogue'; then shunned; deemed 'apostate'. EVEN IF nothing that they have said can be shown to be false or to be in disobedience to Christ. EVEN IF they are following Christ and obeying Him, and are open about their faith and their love for Him. Even if they have not joined another religion and are remaining in Christ and His Father, following them and listening to their commands alone.


It's easier to focus on someone who has 'sinned' (according to jw rules)... but when the woman was brought to Christ to be stoned (the sentence for her sin of adultery), Christ said "Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone."

He could have cast that first stone. He did not.



Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #135

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:21 pm

JW, you keep sharing with us these links on WTS policies and procedures pertaining to these topics...the problem with that is; the information shared in the links are in conflict with personal testimonies from [certain]Ex-JW's.
That much is evidendent ....I am posting documented proof of organisational protocol and directives.
One of the criticism of Jehovah's Witnesses is we are too controlled by their leadership; what does this mean? It means that it is proposed (even by those that do not like us and have nothing to gain ) that Jehovah's are too obedient to directives. So are you saying that yes, Jehovahs Witnesses are indeed completely controlled by their leadership but do not do what their leadership tell them?!
I am posting the rules and directives straight from the horses mouth and saying that there are enough checks and balances to be confident that exceptions to these rules are extremely rare if not nonexistent. These protocols are applied across the board and there is no documented verifiable evidence (that is not mere heresay) for any implied global disregard of them.

That is my point... what is yours ?
Is your point the protocol posted is fictional? Is your point that they are real but are not applied? Or is your point that the rules are applied but lots of people dont like them?


JW



RELATED POSTS
How do Jehovah's Witnesses ensure published policy is carried out?
viewtopic.php?p=1065143#p1065143

Why don't many ex-witness support groups emphasis that leaving does NOT equate to being shunned?
viewtopic.php?p=1066583#p1066583

Why post official JW protocol? Is it faithfully applied?
viewtopic.php?p=1066775#p1066775

Why is there an apparent conflict between the official JWs of disfellowshipping and what is stated on many ex-witness sites?
viewtopic.php?p=1066954#p1066954
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sun Feb 27, 2022 5:37 am, edited 17 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #136

Post by JehovahsWitness »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:32 pm

Exhibit A.

Remember, there are 26 letters in the alphabet.
May I remind you this is a debating forum, not a video posting platform. Do feel unable to post in full sentences what your point is?

Congratulations for having learnt your A-B-Cs




JW
To learn more please go to other posts related to...

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES , DISFELLOWSHIPPING/ SHUNNING and ... ORGANISATIONAL INFALLIBILITY
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #137

Post by Miles »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:59 pm Peace to you,

[Replying to Miles in post #1]

I suppose I should respond also to the OP if I am going to comment on this thread, yeah?
A particularly disturbing comment in the video below:

"We have to put him [Jehovah] before a father, a mother, and even our children if they're disfellowshipped. And if the disfellowshipping of our family is not bad enough, loyalty to Jehovah may mean we even have to endure reproach. We may be hurting because, 'I can't, can't talk to my family member."
Yeah, that is kind of completely missing the point.

The verses below are not saying that WE (who are in Christ) should turn against our loved ones or shun them, even if they do not accept Christ or God.
So what? Most verses in the Bible don't; however, the Jehovah's Witness organization does so when it disfellowships a member.

"Thus "disfellowshiping" is what Jehovah's Witness appropriately call the expelling and subsequent shunning of such an unrepentant wrongdoer."
Watchtower 1981 Sep 15 p.22

We are to love others, even our enemies (bless those who curse us, forgive and be forgiven, do good to those who persecute you, etc), and we are not to turn away from our own flesh and blood (Isaiah 58:7) Even if they turn against US or cast us out.[
Sure you are if they've been disfellowshiped. See quote above and the Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry(1972) statement at the end of the post.
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household.

“Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me."

Consider the real application of those words two thousand years ago (though it is the same today): the religion being practiced by the Jews did not accept Jaheshua as the Messiah. So in households, daughters were going to turn against mothers, fathers against sons, etc... NOT because the people following Christ would shun their loved ones and treat them as though they were dead - but because those who did not accept Christ would turn against those who did accept Christ. (and none of this had ANYTHING to do with committing a sin such as fornication or whatever)

Look at the example in John 9:

They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14 Now the day on which [Jesus] had made the mud and opened the man’s eyes was a Sabbath. 15 Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. “He put mud on my eyes,” the man replied, “and I washed, and now I see.”

16 Some of the Pharisees said, “This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath.”

But others asked, “How can a sinner perform such signs?” So they were divided.

17 Then they turned again to the blind man, “What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened.”

The man replied, “He is a prophet.”

18 They still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man’s parents. 19 “Is this your son?” they asked. “Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?”

20 “We know he is our son,” the parents answered, “and we know he was born blind. 21 But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don’t know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself.” 22 His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders, who already had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Messiah would be put out of the synagogue. 23 That was why his parents said, “He is of age; ask him.”


24 A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. “Give glory to God by telling the truth,” they said. “We know this man is a sinner.”

25 He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

26 Then they asked him, “What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?”

27 He answered, “I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples too?”

28 Then they hurled insults at him and said, “You are this fellow’s disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29 We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don’t even know where he comes from.”

30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”

34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.
Doesn't really matter what the Bible says as long as the JW organization says that disfellowshiped members are to be expelled and shunned, now does it.

"Thus "disfellowshiping" is what Jehovah's Witness appropriately call the expelling and subsequent shunning of such an unrepentant wrongdoer."
Watchtower 1981 Sep 15 p.22


Moreover, "A person that becomes inactive from the congregation or fades out, is still expected to be shunned if they do not abide by Watchtower doctrine, even if not disfellowshipped. This was discussed in the 2016 Regional Convention.

"Loyal Christians would not associate with “anyone called a brother”
[i.e. they should be shunned] who is practicing serious sin. This is true even if no congregation action has been taken, as may be the case with an inactive ones (w85 7/15 19 14)"


And consider those members who come to reject the JW fold. They would have been better off never having heard of Jehovah's Witnesses, that is, if they wanted the friendship of a JW.

(5) Disassociation is generally used for a Witness that voluntarily removes themselves from the congregation. For the sake of this article, disfellowshipping and disassociation will be considered the same, as the implications to the individual are almost identical, in both cases leading to shunning. Organized to Accomplish Our Ministry (1972) states;

"The term disassociation applies to the action taken by a person who, although being a baptized member of the congregation, deliberately repudiates Christian standing, rejecting the congregation and stating that he no longer wants to be recognized or known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. … Also, a person might renounce his place in the Christian congregation by his actions, such as by becoming part of a secular organization the objective of which is contrary to the Bible and, hence, is under judgment by Jehovah God. (Compare Revelation 19:17-21; Isaiah 2:4.) So if a person who is a Christian chooses to join those who are disapproved by God, it would be fitting for the congregation to acknowledge by a brief announcement that he has disassociated himself and is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses. Such a person would be viewed in the same way as a disfellowshipped person." [i.e. expelled and shunned]
source

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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #138

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Miles wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:10 am

I suppose I should respond also to the OP if I am going to comment on this thread ...

So what is your point? It is not a matter of contention that Jehovah's Witnesses practice shunning or that many disagree with this practice. Its not clear what your point is...to prove what is a matter of public record? If so, thanks for sharing.
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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #139

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:31 am
Miles wrote: Thu Feb 10, 2022 3:10 am

I suppose I should respond also to the OP if I am going to comment on this thread ...

So what is your point? It is not a matter of contention that Jehovah's Witnesses practice shunning or that many disagree with this practice. Its not clear what your point is...to prove what is a matter of public record? If so, thanks for sharing.
'Twern't me who uttered those words of supposition, but our friend and Savant, tam.


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Re: "Shocking Jehovah's Witness Convention Talk Telling Parents To Shun Children"

Post #140

Post by onewithhim »

We_Are_VENOM wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 8:21 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:28 am
Not in this thread no. If you honestly feel you have the biblical knowledge to go head to head on any of the above topics with one of Jehovah's Witnesses feel free to start a seperate thread and see how you fare.
Well, the last thread I created on a topic pertaining to JW beliefs was that of Birthdays and Holidays...

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=38510

And neither one of you guys showed up to work.

So it is what it is.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Feb 09, 2022 3:28 am Returning to TOPIC : If someone doesnt agree with the teaching of Jehovah's Witnesses they have but to refrain from joining.. If there are any doctrinal or organisationa changes that a member cannot live with they can just leave!
JW, you keep sharing with us these links on WTS policies and procedures pertaining to these topics...the problem with that is; the information shared in the links are in conflict with personal testimonies from Ex-JW's.

Those that have been on the "ground" are singing a completely different tune...and I tend to believe them.
Why do you believe them? They are disgruntled because they were caught doing something unchristian or they complain because they aren't noticed more and given more authority....there are many reasons that the people formerly "on the ground" are up in arms about the WTS, and none of their complaints are valid. I know, because I have been on the ground for 47 years and I've seen it all.

The problem is, not what the links that JW shares say, but what the "personal testimonies from ex-JWs" are. Why choose to believe them and not someone like myself? They lie through their teeth, for their own interests, and they are vicious, intent on nothing but tearing down.

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