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I am creating this thread because I believe it deserves its own space. Two wars (debates) were fought on the "Why Do You Really Believe" thread created by POI. The two wars..
1. The universe and cosmology
2. The Authorship and Dating of the New Testament (main focus; the Gospels)
Now, I am all for one conversation leading to another, but it seemed as if the two topics were getting convoluted and there needed to be a place for both topics to thrive.
Let me also point out that history has always been my favorite subject, and even more so as it pertains to my faith (Christianity). So I am always delighted to discuss history, dating, and just in general trying to decipher and unpack events of the past...especially if it involves apologetics.
This thread focuses on #2, as I respond to post #124 from AlexxcJRO...
Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
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Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #1
Last edited by We_Are_VENOM on Fri Jan 14, 2022 12:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Authorship and Dating of the New Testament (main focus; The Gospels)
Post #71Moderator CommentWe_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:43 am Now, go to your own thread, knowing that this thread belongs to VENOM.
Please avoid making personal comments.
Please review the Rules.
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Re: The Authorship and Dating of the New Testament (main focus; The Gospels)
Post #72FYI, just because you originate a thread doesn't confer ownership.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 11:43 am [Replying to alexxcJRO in post #63]
You can have the last word, sir.
Now, go to your own thread, knowing that this thread belongs to VENOM.
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Re: Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #73The topic was “the gospel either originated in eye-witness testimony(the apostles) or were written by the apostles themselves” vs “the gospel did not originated in eye-witness testimony(the apostles) and were not written by the apostles themselves”.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:45 am This thread sounded promising but I'm not really clear on what the specific topic is, what specifically is the thesis being defended/attacked here?
We engaged in “the tree its white vs no the tree is black” when the big picture tells us that even if we have a forest of white trees it simply does not matter.
I only did it to show that they (the Christians) don’t have even that: that the tree/trees is/are white.
Eye-witness testimony is still bogus, weak evidence conform reality.
I have plenty eye witness testimonial evidence from alive people(a neighbour in my apartment building and others) who have told me of their encounters with shape shifters-strigois/talking dogs.
We have plenty of testimonials for all kinds of miracles from all religions(Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, Mormonism) for levitation, YETI, Lock Nest Monster, The Greys Abductions, Ghosts, Poltergeists, telepathy and so one.
Q: Should I believe now in strigois and a myriad of other things? Most mutually exclusive?
A: Off course not.
Rationally would be for me to wait for more compelling->extraordinary evidence for claims that are extraordinary.
Eye witness testimonial should not convince anyone let alone 2000 years old bogus testimonial evidence based on rumor, hearsay, oral transmission.
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Re: Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #74My bad. Basically, the theist (me) am arguing that we have reasons to conclude that all Gospels (and for the most part, the entire new testament) was written prior to 70 CE.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:45 am This thread sounded promising but I'm not really clear on what the specific topic is, what specifically is the thesis being defended/attacked here?
You know how it is, the theists' goal is to get the years/timeframes as close to the 30's CE as possible, while the skeptics' goal is to them the years as furthest from the 30' CE as possible.
Also, the question is; who wrote the Gospels? I maintain that the Gospels were written by either apostles or friends of the apostles...and skeptics argue otherwise.
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Re: Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #75Hmm. Would you like to be next up, junior?TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:21 am We shall have to see about that, as I doubt that this will be the last comment on the subject and I see no reason why you having, evidently, failed to come up with anything, then expect the victor to quit the field leaving you to claim that you won.
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Re: Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #76Clownboat wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:55 pm
And there we have it, scare tactics. I would think a god would do better than terrorists, but alas...
When I was a child, the threats of hellfire from those who loved me were very convincing. Then I grew up and had children of my own and discovered that I could have convince them that I hung the moon, but I didn't.
Religions do best when they get you when your young and scaring children into believing by telling them they will burn in hellfire for eternity or miss out on eternal life or what have you is a very effective means to keep children in the flock, but it is nothing more than scare tactics. A shame really!
Wow, you guys sure spend a lot of wasted time thinking/commenting on stuff that you don't believe in.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:30 pm
I might add that they are empty scare tactics. Those who employ them fail to provide verifiable evidence that there is a possibility that eternal life is attainable. They threaten that some will lose that which can't be verified is a reality. As you say, most children are likely to overlook this failure. Some of us who are a bit past childhood notice it and marvel how many overlook this fact.
Tcg
Just sayin.
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Re: Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #77I suppose I shall have to be, Granddad, as you seem to incline to claiming a draw as a win, let alone declining a bout.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:15 pmHmm. Would you like to be next up, junior?TRANSPONDER wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 10:21 am We shall have to see about that, as I doubt that this will be the last comment on the subject and I see no reason why you having, evidently, failed to come up with anything, then expect the victor to quit the field leaving you to claim that you won.
Of course Just as creationists put in huge amounts of effort into discrediting something they don't believe in. Goes with the territory of debate. I'm surprised I had to point that simple fact out to you, old man.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:19 pmClownboat wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:55 pm
And there we have it, scare tactics. I would think a god would do better than terrorists, but alas...
When I was a child, the threats of hellfire from those who loved me were very convincing. Then I grew up and had children of my own and discovered that I could have convince them that I hung the moon, but I didn't.
Religions do best when they get you when your young and scaring children into believing by telling them they will burn in hellfire for eternity or miss out on eternal life or what have you is a very effective means to keep children in the flock, but it is nothing more than scare tactics. A shame really!Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:30 pm
I might add that they are empty scare tactics. Those who employ them fail to provide verifiable evidence that there is a possibility that eternal life is attainable. They threaten that some will lose that which can't be verified is a reality. As you say, most children are likely to overlook this failure. Some of us who are a bit past childhood notice it and marvel how many overlook this fact.
Tcg
Wow, you guys sure spend a lot of wasted time thinking/commenting on stuff that you don't believe in.
Just sayin.
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Re: Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #78I was a believer for 2 decades. If I can be set free, there is hope for others. Therefore, I do not view it as a waste of time.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:19 pmClownboat wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:55 pm
And there we have it, scare tactics. I would think a god would do better than terrorists, but alas...
When I was a child, the threats of hellfire from those who loved me were very convincing. Then I grew up and had children of my own and discovered that I could have convince them that I hung the moon, but I didn't.
Religions do best when they get you when your young and scaring children into believing by telling them they will burn in hellfire for eternity or miss out on eternal life or what have you is a very effective means to keep children in the flock, but it is nothing more than scare tactics. A shame really!Wow, you guys sure spend a lot of wasted time thinking/commenting on stuff that you don't believe in.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:30 pm
I might add that they are empty scare tactics. Those who employ them fail to provide verifiable evidence that there is a possibility that eternal life is attainable. They threaten that some will lose that which can't be verified is a reality. As you say, most children are likely to overlook this failure. Some of us who are a bit past childhood notice it and marvel how many overlook this fact.
Tcg
Just sayin.
Perhaps even you will be set free some day?
Be well.
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Re: Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #79Same here.Clownboat wrote: ↑Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:36 pmI was a believer for 2 decades. If I can be set free, there is hope for others. Therefore, I do not view it as a waste of time.We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:19 pmClownboat wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 3:55 pm
And there we have it, scare tactics. I would think a god would do better than terrorists, but alas...
When I was a child, the threats of hellfire from those who loved me were very convincing. Then I grew up and had children of my own and discovered that I could have convince them that I hung the moon, but I didn't.
Religions do best when they get you when your young and scaring children into believing by telling them they will burn in hellfire for eternity or miss out on eternal life or what have you is a very effective means to keep children in the flock, but it is nothing more than scare tactics. A shame really!Wow, you guys sure spend a lot of wasted time thinking/commenting on stuff that you don't believe in.Tcg wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 4:30 pm
I might add that they are empty scare tactics. Those who employ them fail to provide verifiable evidence that there is a possibility that eternal life is attainable. They threaten that some will lose that which can't be verified is a reality. As you say, most children are likely to overlook this failure. Some of us who are a bit past childhood notice it and marvel how many overlook this fact.
Tcg
Just sayin.
It still amazes me (though it shouldn't) that people think that because they don't believe in something doesn't mean they can think about it, be entertained by it, defend against it, etc.
I mean, I don't play with plastic dinosaurs anymore, but I still like learning about them. Doesn't seem abnormal or a 'waste of time' to me.
But to each their (discontented) own I suppose.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
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Re: Who Wrote the Gospels and When?
Post #80Yes, aside from the topic, I have often heard (from both sides as i recall...so it isn't just Theists trying to shut us up) that there is "no point in talking as nobody will change their minds".
Well, that is clearly not the case as the proverbial 'half' of atheists used to be believers (lifetimer, myself) so they must have changed their minds. I know it seems like opinions are ossified, but I have a theory...that you cannot change peoples' minds, but they can change their own, but it won't happen unless people make them Think. That's why we should do this, and the only fret I have is that it is too small in scope. Theist domination thrives on being the sole voice and the real problem for secularism is not the discussion, the logic or the evidence; we have won all those. It is that Theism wants to have the only voice. And the internet is where the Voice is.
It does work. I've seen it. There are 'transitional forms' right here where some modified forms of Christianity are seen - no Hellthreat. Some adaptations to 'Evolution' in the broader sense. They may go no further, but they may go all the way as with a former opponent of mine on a forum (tough but fairly respectful) turned up a few years later totally deconverted. I don't see Theists here (though I do see theist -think) as enemies, but potential deconverts.
Well, that is clearly not the case as the proverbial 'half' of atheists used to be believers (lifetimer, myself) so they must have changed their minds. I know it seems like opinions are ossified, but I have a theory...that you cannot change peoples' minds, but they can change their own, but it won't happen unless people make them Think. That's why we should do this, and the only fret I have is that it is too small in scope. Theist domination thrives on being the sole voice and the real problem for secularism is not the discussion, the logic or the evidence; we have won all those. It is that Theism wants to have the only voice. And the internet is where the Voice is.
It does work. I've seen it. There are 'transitional forms' right here where some modified forms of Christianity are seen - no Hellthreat. Some adaptations to 'Evolution' in the broader sense. They may go no further, but they may go all the way as with a former opponent of mine on a forum (tough but fairly respectful) turned up a few years later totally deconverted. I don't see Theists here (though I do see theist -think) as enemies, but potential deconverts.