Miracles, portents and resurrection: not exclusive to Christianity

[Diagoras]

A rather interesting article here describes how the Roman world at the time of Jesus had a number of 'competing' gods, religions and cults.

A few highlights (all bolding mine for emphasis):

During the Roman period a new legend developed concerning Dionysus, one that offers intriguing parallels to Christianity. According to this legend, Dionysus was killed while battling the enemies of Zeus. His body was dismembered, but Zeus restored him to immortal life. Henceforth, according to the late first-century Greek philosopher Plutarch, Dionysus became a dying and rising god, and a symbol of ever-lasting life.

Roman historians such as Suetonius and Tacitus frequently reported the occurrence of miraculous omens or portents regarding the emperors, particularly at the beginning or end of their reigns. Because Rome placed its rulers at the summit of human society, it was believed that they served as mediators for the will of the gods on earth.

According to stories recorded by the Greek historians Dio Cassius and Tacitus, Vespasian worked several healing miracles, while visiting the shrine of Sarapis in Egypt.

With his miraculous cures, Asclepius quickly earned great fame. Motivated by compassion, he even succeeded in restoring the dead to life.

Isis was worshipped continuously for thousands of years, before achieving her greatest renown in the early Roman empire. During this final period, her cult presented one of the most formidable and enduring rivalries to early Christianity

With the advent of the reign of Augustus in 27 BCE, life in the provincial cities of the Greek East became far more stable and prosperous than it had been for a very long time. The relief of the subject peoples was immense, and a number of the cities issued decrees honoring the new emperor as the earthly appearance of a benevolent god: "Providence. . .by producing Augustus [has sent] us and our descendants a Savior, who has put an end to war and established all things. . . ."

For debate:

"The extraordinary claims made about Jesus were necessary to put Christianity on at least equal footing as any other religion of the time."

One final quote, from near the end of the article suggests why the 'cult of the emperors' would likely be viewed as a threat to Christianity:

Even more relevant to the rival message of the Christian gospels, however, was the gradual development of the relationship between the emperor and Zeus (Jupiter) himself, the sovereign ruler of the gods and the world.

[Diagoras]

[Replying to 1213 in post #10]

I am not all knowing, therefore most of my arguments are probably arguments of ignorance.

I think here you're confusing opinions for 'arguments'. I was pointing out a logical flaw, that's all. There's nothing to say that your opinions cannot be valid.

The others seem to have only the works, not the teaching part. that is why I think they more probably copied. The one that is copied must have had something special why some people decided to copy it.

Well, I think that the teachings of an ordinary person (Jesus) were in danger of being forgotten or ignored in the face of pressure from Roman authorities to worship the emperor. It seems much more likely that his followers would decide to 'pad his curriculum vitae' with miracles and resurrections - things that would certainly be seen as 'special', as you state.

Out of interest, did you follow the link in the first post and read the article?

[1213]

... I was pointing out a logical flaw, that's all. There's nothing to say that your opinions cannot be valid.

I dont think there was a logical flaw, but, if there was, I think it would mean my opinion is then not valid.

pressure from Roman authorities to worship the emperor

I think that is why it is interesting, if there was a number of 'competing' gods.

Out of interest, did you follow the link in the first post and read the article?

I think you had nicely enough quotes for my opinion. I checked it now and biggest problem for me is that there is not in my opinion enough good sources for the information.

But, there are some interesting points, like for example:
"the Olympian deities seemed not to care about the lives of ordinary human beings."

Why did people keep them as gods, if they didnt care?

And another point is:
"Although all of these religious claims seem remarkable to the modern reader, none of them would have astounded the average citizen of the early Roman empire. Stories of heavenly portents, miraculous healings, mystical visions, and even resurrections were told about a number of demi-gods or heroes."

If that is true, why would Christians copy those miracles for Jesus, if they were basically ordinary stuff for the people? Why would they see Jesus something special, if he was jut like the other "demi-gods"?

[Diagoras]

... I was pointing out a logical flaw, that's all. There's nothing to say that your opinions cannot be valid.

I dont think there was a logical flaw, but, if there was, I think it would mean my opinion is then not valid.

Maybe you didn't recognise it, but the flaw was there. Let me know if you want it explained, but that's probably best dealt with in a separate thread.

And another point is:
"Although all of these religious claims seem remarkable to the modern reader, none of them would have astounded the average citizen of the early Roman empire. Stories of heavenly portents, miraculous healings, mystical visions, and even resurrections were told about a number of demi-gods or heroes."

If that is true, why would Christians copy those miracles for Jesus, if they were basically ordinary stuff for the people? Why would they see Jesus something special, if he was just [sic] like the other "demi-gods"?

You've got your thinking backwards.

Gods at the time were noted for things like extraordinary feats, miracles and whatever. Jesus, as an ordinary human, might originally have had some renown as a teacher, but wasn't seen as 'anything special'.

In order to become as 'special' as any of the other gods, the stories of Jesus needed to have some god-like miracles and resurrections added to them.

Remember also, that these early Christians were all mixed in with regular Jews at the time. Some of those people who didn't believe Jesus was anything special would have been the people who retained their Jewish faith. Those that chose to believe the new 'Jesus as god' narrative became Christians. And subsequently, that group became influential enough to get the religion recognised by Rome and start to spread across the empire.

[Diagoras]

To back up that last point, see this Wikipedia article on Judaism's view of Jesus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus

Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son of God.

<...>

To the question, Was Jesus God or man?, the Christians therefore answered: both. After 70 AD, their answer was unanimous and increasingly emphatic. This made a complete breach with Judaism inevitable.

[1213]

To back up that last point, see this Wikipedia article on Judaism's view of Jesus:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism%27s_view_of_Jesus

Judaism teaches that it is heretical for any man to claim to be God, part of God, or the literal son of God.

<...>

To the question, Was Jesus God or man?, the Christians therefore answered: both. After 70 AD, their answer was unanimous and increasingly emphatic. This made a complete breach with Judaism inevitable.

And yet Jesus says in the Bible:

How can you believe, who receive glory from one another, and you don't seek the glory that comes from the only God?
John 5:44

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

And even Paul says:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

[Diagoras]

[Replying to 1213 in post #15]

Perhaps straying ever so slightly off-topic, but I can easily counter that with a couple of Bible references from John: in John 14:811 he says "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?" and in John 8:5859 he says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am", where

Jesus uses a very specific title that Jews understood was ascribed only to God.

<bolding mine>

Here's another article that supports my claim:

https://www.npr.org/2014/04/07/30024609 ... become-one

From the article:

If Jesus had not been declared God by his followers, his followers would've remained a sect within Judaism a small Jewish sect, and if that was the case it would not have attracted a large number of gentiles.

You might also be interested in the 'Empty Tomb' thread, which is quite active at the moment, and has some intriguing similarities to the topic in this thread. A 'vanishing body' is yet another example of a fairly common story in the literature of the time.

[1213]

Perhaps straying ever so slightly off-topic, but I can easily counter that with a couple of Bible references from John: in John 14:811 he says "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?" and in John 8:5859 he says "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am", where

Neither of them says Jesus is the one and only true God.

And in the case of John 14:811, I think it would be good to notice this following scripture also, because I think it can help to understand the point better.

that they may all be one; even as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that you sent me.
John 17:21

[YahwhatIsBack]

Yes, the story about Vespasian miraculously healing a blind man with spit is very similar to what Jesus does in Mark 8:22-26. This is independently attested in Tacitus Hist. 4.81, Suetonius Vesp. 7.2, Cassius Dio Rom. Hist. 65.8.1. It is interesting how the reign of Vespasian 69-79CE coincides with the time most scholars think Mark was written. Many scholars even argue for a Roman provenance for the gospel. For an argument that Mark may have been responding to Vespasian propaganda see Brian Incigneri pp. 170-72 and Adam Winn pp. 184-85.

Another interesting fact is the specific set of miracles shared between Qumran document 4Q521 and Luke 7:21-22, Matthew 11:2-5.

4Q521
[the hea]vens and the earth will listen to His Messiah, and none therein will stray from the commandments of the holy ones.
Seekers of the Lord, strengthen yourselves in His service!
All you hopeful in (your) heart, will you not find the Lord in this?
For the Lord will consider the pious (hasidim) and call the righteous by name.
Over the poor His spirit will hover and will renew the faithful with His power.
And He will glorify the pious on the throne of the eternal Kingdom.
He who liberates the captives, restores sight to the blind, straightens the b[ent]
And f[or] ever I will cleav[ve to the h]opeful and in His mercy . . .
And the fr[uit . . .] will not be delayed for anyone.
And the Lord will accomplish glorious things which have never been as [He . . .]
For He will heal the wounded, and revive the dead and bring good news to the poor
. . .He will lead the uprooted and knowledge . . . and smoke (?)

Lk. 7:21-22
At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. So he replied to the messengers, "Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.

Mt. 11:2-5
When John, who was in prison, heard about the deeds of the Messiah, he sent his disciples to ask him, "Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?"

Jesus replied, "Go back and report to John what you hear and see: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor.

Not only does 4Q521 connect the Messiah figure with the Resurrection (reviving the dead), it also proclaims specific "miraculous deeds" were expected to happen. So now it's no wonder why Jesus is depicted as fulfilling this role in the gospels. If you're trying to portray Jesus as the Messiah then you better make sure you depict him fulfilling the miracles the Messiah was expected to perform! Understood this way, the gospel stories were just Jewish Messianic propaganda similar to the way the stories about Vespasian were Roman Imperial propaganda.