Christianity in your mind's eye

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historia
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Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #1

Post by historia »

Christianity is one of the world's largest and most diverse religious traditions.

And yet, for brevity's sake, it's convenient to make reference to 'Christianity' or 'Christians' on this forum without having to reel off a litany of qualifiers about which particular churches, beliefs, and practices we are describing. But do we all have the same thing in mind when we do this?

Consider these comments from a couple of our friendly neighborhood atheists:
Bust Nak wrote: Mon Sep 28, 2020 10:38 am
Take mainstream Catholic teaching, remove Mary, mother of God stuff, remove Papal authority. That's my working assumption of what Christianity is
Difflugia wrote: Tue Feb 15, 2022 10:44 am
As far as I'm concerned, anyone that says they're Christian is Christian, but pretending that the Catholics are anything but the standard for orthodoxy is chutzpah.
Questions for debate:

When making reference to 'Christianity' in general terms, should we all have in mind Roman Catholicism (or something close to that)?

Is that, in fact, the expression of Christianity you have in your mind when you personally use the term 'Christianity'?

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theophile
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Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #41

Post by theophile »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:26 am
theophile wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:33 am
Diagoras wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:47 pm
historia wrote: Sat Feb 19, 2022 12:31 pmBut, apart from this forum or any kind of debate, when you personally think about Christianity, do you picture it as just being this really basic, minimal set of beliefs? Or do you picture it differently?
As a non-theist, I'm inclined to picture Christianity more as 'being this really basic, minimal set of beliefs', than the 'acting in a certain way'. The latter is compatible (in my view) with the philosophy of humanism in many respects, so it would be too broad a characterisation to be really useful.
If we take that approach, we'd be calling a lot of folks 'Christian' who couldn't be further from the truth. I think cms highlighted that nicely in his Hitler question :)

But yes, there would be overlap / compatibility with humanism. That said, I'm not sure I agree with your 'too broad a characterization to be useful' comment. Is the definition of humanism itself 'too broad to be useful'?... The path of the Christian is a narrow one (if we take Jesus' teaching seriously). For instance, what humanist gives away all that they own and trusts in the world to provide?
Which brings in humanism, as Jefferson thought that the Gospels were the best moral code there was, even if he didn't believe in the divine claims. That's humanism. There are religious humanists who (so far as I can gather) reckon that we are better off to arrange and live our lives as though there was was no god there, and humanism can cover everyone from Theists to atheists and including irreligious theists and Deists, too.
I don't have a problem with that view. I think it heightens human accountability which we tend to lose sight of, especially when we (mis)construe God as all powerful and controlling. If we exclude Genesis 1, the whole arc of the bible is human driven, with brief interjections by God. Genesis 1 sets up (and many parables follow) a stewardship model, with the expectation that we are to run the show until God returns (whenever that is).
TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 9:26 am In view of the topic I won't critique the Bible as a moral code, but just to say that humanism is not incompatible with the Gospels, given that they both try to devise the best way to live, so far as they can. Which brings up the point :P of human (secular) moral codes diverging from the Bible. Sure, we have moved on from the OT and the attempts of Bible apologists to pretend that there isn't approval of slavery in the Bible (or at least acceptance of it) in either and both Old and New T, make that clear. Also the attempts to make out that it doesn't treat women as 2nd class citizens. Whether or not women being used to bake cakes and deliver letterbox flyers for the Roman Church, while then having to stand at the back at services with their heads covered and their traps shut was empowering women or not, the fact that we even have that debate shows that human social mores have moved on even from the discussion of slavery and gender equality. So there is no reason why Christian humanists at least should quietly accept that God and Jesus are letting us do it our own way, which is better than anything in the Bible.
Conversations in their own right, but if we take Paul seriously, that Christians are not under law, but grace (i.e., that they are slaves to righteousness versus sin), and the point about human accountability above, perhaps we can deconstruct some of these pernicious views.

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Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #42

Post by JoeyKnothead »

theophile wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 10:34 am Of course we can't. Hypocrisy runs rampant in this world. I would also suggest there are a lot of church practices and teachings that are wholly un-Christian. So if "godly life" is defined as, say, doing what the pope says... like having children versus dogs... We're in that spot (again) where the truly Christian is malformed (IMO) and given a bad rap.
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cms

Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #43

Post by cms »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 8:10 am While the Rule that 'The first one to mention Hitler loses the argument' is overdone, it really, really doesn't do the case of the debator any good to drag Hitler - comparisons into it.
Okay then, is Charles Manson the picture of Christianity?
theophile wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 11:20 am
Conversations in their own right, but if we take Paul seriously, that Christians are not under law, but grace (i.e., that they are slaves to righteousness versus sin),
As Paul says, Christians are under one law. He who loves another has fulfilled the Law (of God).
But I agree. There is only one dividing line in Christianity, those who love others as themselves and those who don't. There are only two trees in Christianity, the tree that produces good fruit ( the fruit of the Spirit of God) and the tree that produces bad fruit.

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William
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Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #44

Post by William »

[Replying to cms in post #43]
Perhaps we can deconstruct some of these pernicious views.
The idea of there being such a thing as "A true Christian" if we were to take off the costumes and masks [re pernicious] is pointless, as that ship has sailed... for Christianity itself is the vehicle which caused the notion of a true Christian, to be a confusing thing to the point that it is not possible to identify such a thing as being actually real.

I have noticed that those who are most interested, tend to think of themselves as "True Christians" and what they are attempting to do is to engage with others on the matter in order to point to themselves as evidence that such a thing actually exists.

Even taking Paul into consideration, I am more inclined to the idea that a True Human is more identifiable than a true Christian as "one who engages consistently in what I call "The Trinity of Love" - which is what biblical Jesus referred to in Matt.22:40
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Although on the surface, this appears to be focused upon two things - God and Nieghbour - the "your self", makes up the Trinity of Love.

It is a mystery which must be solved that the Human becomes true.

The thing being, is that there are folk of all types of position who do not identify as being "Christian/true Christian" who operate their lives on the understanding of the principle of the Trinity of Love.

Certainly, they are theists - but they are not going around identifying as "Christians".


The Nature of Reality
The Trinity of Love

Upon Further, Deeper Inspection
Absolutely Perfectly Beautiful.
A Matter of Knowing Where to Look
Matthew Twenty Two – Forty

Seeds are evidence that something large can derive from something tiny.
It is a mystery which must be solved that the Human becomes true.

cms

Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #45

Post by cms »

William wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:12 pm .. for Christianity itself is the vehicle which caused the notion of a true Christian, to be a confusing thing to the point that it is not possible to identify such a thing as being actually real.
On the contrary Christianity was supposed to be the vehicle in which you are no longer tossed and turned in the waves of the ocean of other ideas and philosophies. Christianity has always been a matter of the heart and mind ( Spirit). As you pointed out, there are only two commandments, and basically that boils down to one: "even in this, Love others as yourself."
William wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:12 pm Certainly, they are theists - but they are not going around identifying as "Christians".
Then maybe it's high time people start teaching the truth of Christianity.

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Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #46

Post by historia »

cms wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:03 am
historia wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:14 pm
No, what I'm saying is that the large number of beliefs and practices held in common between Eastern Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism are what we should all have in mind when someone talks generally about 'Christianity'.
historia, Jesus Christ represents Christianity. He was the model, the very definition of Christianity.
Jesus is obviously the focus of Christianity, but it's rather strange to equate Jesus with Christianity. That's not the approach major encyclopedias (e.g., Britannica) take when defining Christianity, so this is a rather idiosyncratic view you hold.

Maybe you want to assert that the True Religion™ should only include some subset of ideas extracted from Christianity. But, in that case, it seems like you need a different word to describe your proposal, as 'Christianity' is already taken.
cms wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:03 am
JW's aren't Catholic. So from you're saying, Catholicism is what we should have in mind when someone talks about JW's.
Not at all. When "talking about JW's," if you use the word "Jehovah's Witnesses," then everyone is clear about who and what you are describing.

My point concerns the scenario where someone uses the term "Christian" or "Christianity" without any qualifier. In that scenario, I suggest the speaker should have something like Roman Catholicism in mind, or else a considerable amount of confusion will follow.

If, instead, they want to discuss a belief or practice that is only held by, say, Evangelical Christians or Mormons or some other marginal Christian group, then they should explicitly use the name of that group rather than just use the broad term "Christianity."

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Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #47

Post by William »

[Replying to cms in post #45]
It is a mystery which must be solved that the Human becomes true.

The thing being, is that there are folk of all types of position who do not identify as being "Christian/true Christian" who operate their lives on the understanding of the principle of the Trinity of Love.
Then maybe it's high time people start teaching the truth of Christianity.
As was pointed out - That ship has sailed. Christianity failed in that regard.

A new Paradigm is rising whereby folk can drop the idea of being a 'true Christian' and simply be a True Human.
As you pointed out, there are only two commandments, and basically that boils down to one: "even in this, Love others as yourself."
No - I pointed out that there were three commandments.

1: Love God with all of ones self
2: Love your Self
3: Love your neighbour

Since the Trinity of Love are three things operating as One Thing I agree with you, and would add to your expression:

"Even in this, Love your self as God."

Any who have a problem with that idea, do not understand what Biblical Jesus was saying.

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Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #48

Post by Diagoras »

cms wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:23 am
Diagoras wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 6:47 pm As a non-theist, I'm inclined to picture Christianity more as 'being this really basic, minimal set of beliefs', than the 'acting in a certain way'.
Diagoras, Is Hitler the picture of Christianity?
Did Hitler strongly believe in the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus? I don't know, but if he did, then 'Christian' seems a reasonable label to apply to him. There are other labels that better apply to him though: dictator, maniac, vile racist, etc.

There are (sadly) many examples of Catholic priests having been convicted for sexual offences against children. They are still Christians, too. Just not very good ones, obviously. Isn't there something about 'hate the sin, love the sinner'? And something about being forgiven sins if you truly repent and 'come to Jesus'? Why would those tenets not apply to those who believe, but still commit grievous sins?

Labelling Hitler as a Christian doesn't automatically mean every other Christian should be 'tarred with the same brush': he's an extreme outlier when you consider the entire Christian population. I don't think he's relevant to this discussion.

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Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #49

Post by theophile »

historia wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 1:41 pm
cms wrote: Mon Feb 21, 2022 2:03 am
historia wrote: Sun Feb 20, 2022 7:14 pm
No, what I'm saying is that the large number of beliefs and practices held in common between Eastern Orthodoxy & Roman Catholicism are what we should all have in mind when someone talks generally about 'Christianity'.
historia, Jesus Christ represents Christianity. He was the model, the very definition of Christianity.
Jesus is obviously the focus of Christianity, but it's rather strange to equate Jesus with Christianity. That's not the approach major encyclopedias (e.g., Britannica) take when defining Christianity, so this is a rather idiosyncratic view you hold.
Encyclopedias are for grade school research assignments. :)

In defense of Christ = Christianity, we have to remember that in biblical theology there is meant to be union and becoming one body under Christ. It's like marriage (which I would argue is the metaphor for how we join with Christ), where two literally become one flesh. As such, Christ does represent all members, or all of Christendom, since true Christians are literally one with Christ. The 'body of Christ' is Christendom (in a nutshell).

Again for reference, 1 Corinthians 12:12-13
"For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves[a] or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit."

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Re: Christianity in your mind's eye

Post #50

Post by William »

[Replying to theophile in post #49]
In defense of Christ = Christianity, we have to remember that in biblical theology there is meant to be union and becoming one body under Christ. It's like marriage (which I would argue is the metaphor for how we join with Christ), where two literally become one flesh. As such, Christ does represent all members, or all of Christendom,
since true Christians
are literally one with Christ. The 'body of Christ' is Christendom (in a nutshell).
The problem with this relational is that it assumes such a thing as a "True Christian" can be identified in any member of Christendom.

Yet where is the evidence?

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