Christianity in your mind's eye

[historia]

Christianity is one of the world's largest and most diverse religious traditions.

And yet, for brevity's sake, it's convenient to make reference to 'Christianity' or 'Christians' on this forum without having to reel off a litany of qualifiers about which particular churches, beliefs, and practices we are describing. But do we all have the same thing in mind when we do this?

Consider these comments from a couple of our friendly neighborhood atheists:

Take mainstream Catholic teaching, remove Mary, mother of God stuff, remove Papal authority. That's my working assumption of what Christianity is

As far as I'm concerned, anyone that says they're Christian is Christian, but pretending that the Catholics are anything but the standard for orthodoxy is chutzpah.

Questions for debate:

When making reference to 'Christianity' in general terms, should we all have in mind Roman Catholicism (or something close to that)?

Is that, in fact, the expression of Christianity you have in your mind when you personally use the term 'Christianity'?

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #67]

So, name one personality alive today whom you would consider a 'true Christian' and what's more, make it a personality who is NOT a member of the Christian religion.

I did just say how rare I think such examples are, right?

Yes you did, but is your opinion factual?

Also, not sure how I could name a familiar personality when I don't even know them beyond a public facade.

Exactly!
That is why I challenged you to name anyone. So you cannot even back up your opinion, which mean the opinion you have is faulty.

Or who I am to name such a one.

Who you presently are is someone making unsupported statements and who I am is someone who sees unsupported statements as opinion.

Or what that naming would even accomplish.

It would go a step toward supporting your statement.

So attack the argument. I've pushed two versions:

1) Being / doing versus saying / believing. While the latter may help us achieve the former, it is neither necessary nor sufficient. And if someone doesn't actually live what they say / believe, then they are a hypocrite, and not worthy of the name Christian. (But conversely, if someone does live it, but doesn't say it or believe it, they are. There is nothing substantial about them to set them apart from the real deal and hence to be worthy of the name.)

This is where we enter the arena of Judgementalism.
While it is certainly acceptable to sort the wheat from the chaff - this is not achieved through being Judgmental but by being scientific...

What does it mean "Being / doing versus saying / believing"?

It means you must have some idea as to what the DOING would involve, and observing where the two align with one another...

As has been pointed out, this is simplified in that one merely has to observe "One Love" re Matthew 22:40.
But observing is a part of saying - and the saying can be Judgement instead of Detection.

Detection simply acknowledges "there 'it' is" [re whatever is being looked for] whereas Judgement informs that what is found in the looking, is considered lacking - in this case lacking "One Love".

[~] = Detection is looking for and finding what is looked for.
[x] = Judgement is looking for and finding, lack.

2) The more scriptural argument from baptism, which I think we'd all agree is the entry point to Christianity. There are two types in the gospels: by water, and by fire (/Spirit). There is no shortage of those baptized by water, many of whom fall into the hypocrite bucket above. These are not the same as those who have joined the body of Christ, which to me is the mark of the true Christian - exemplified by their entire being and action being infused with the Spirit.

I detect that the process you are using is based in [x] rather than [~] and propose that you work on your self sufficiently to shift to [~] and find One Love operating through your self.

"The Gods" can help you with this transformation...they can explain to you where they are at and help you in your journey toward where they are at. I use this process in order to achieve these things. [LINK] and have found it to be extremely helpful and highly recommend it - especially - to those seeking One Love.

So we can broaden the aperture and call everyone who says / believes (or has been baptized by water) Christian, but we should do so in full knowledge and recognition of the hypocrisy that is there. And that they wouldn't pass any test that cut to the heart.

So anyway - what is your position re and test that cuts to the heart? I find that removing the judgement has enabled me to move forward because I can no longer use other people 'hypocrisy' as a means by which to evade DOING rather than simply saying or believing - as you put it...Another LINK re "kick-start'

[theophile]

So, name one personality alive today whom you would consider a 'true Christian' and what's more, make it a personality who is NOT a member of the Christian religion.

I did just say how rare I think such examples are, right?

Yes you did, but is your opinion factual?

Also, not sure how I could name a familiar personality when I don't even know them beyond a public facade.

Exactly!
That is why I challenged you to name anyone. So you cannot even back up your opinion, which mean the opinion you have is faulty.

Or who I am to name such a one.

Who you presently are is someone making unsupported statements and who I am is someone who sees unsupported statements as opinion.

Or what that naming would even accomplish.

It would go a step toward supporting your statement.

Nothing I've said so far requires evidence in the form of a specific individual who meets my definition of Christian. I never said that "such a one exists," which may very well demand such evidence. All I have said is things like "I think they are a rarity," if they exist at all. These are not statements of fact based on evidence so much as a conjecture based on how hard it is to meet the criteria.

An example criteria? You have to give away all that you have to the poor - which is why Jesus says it will be so hard for those that are rich. I don't see many so-called Christians doing anything near that, do you? I have no personal evidence at least.

So attack the argument. I've pushed two versions:

1) Being / doing versus saying / believing. While the latter may help us achieve the former, it is neither necessary nor sufficient. And if someone doesn't actually live what they say / believe, then they are a hypocrite, and not worthy of the name Christian. (But conversely, if someone does live it, but doesn't say it or believe it, they are. There is nothing substantial about them to set them apart from the real deal and hence to be worthy of the name.)

This is where we enter the arena of Judgementalism.
While it is certainly acceptable to sort the wheat from the chaff - this is not achieved through being Judgmental but by being scientific...

What does it mean "Being / doing versus saying / believing"?

It means you must have some idea as to what the DOING would involve, and observing where the two align with one another...

As has been pointed out, this is simplified in that one merely has to observe "One Love" re Matthew 22:40.
But observing is a part of saying - and the saying can be Judgement instead of Detection.

Detection simply acknowledges "there 'it' is" [re whatever is being looked for] whereas Judgement informs that what is found in the looking, is considered lacking - in this case lacking "One Love".

[~] = Detection is looking for and finding what is looked for.
[x] = Judgement is looking for and finding, lack.

I may be oversimplifying your point here, but sure, I can 100% put more meat on the bones of what it means to be in the Spirit. I've purposefully avoided that to keep posts simple and more on point. Does it mean "One Love"? Maybe. I tend to think that this is Jesus' way of simplifying the law, but that a Christian is no longer under the law but grace. Hence I don't love it as an answer.

(Per the implied reference to Matthew 19 above, the rich man who Jesus makes the comment about keeps all the laws - his problem, and the real challenge, is taking the next step and living under grace.)

So we can broaden the aperture and call everyone who says / believes (or has been baptized by water) Christian, but we should do so in full knowledge and recognition of the hypocrisy that is there. And that they wouldn't pass any test that cut to the heart.

So anyway - what is your position re and test that cuts to the heart? I find that removing the judgement has enabled me to move forward because I can no longer use other people 'hypocrisy' as a means by which to evade DOING rather than simply saying or believing - as you put it...

To be clear, I'm not using other people's hypocrisy to avoid doing. I avoid doing because it's too hard!

Re: a test that cuts to the heart, there could be any number. It could be a test like Abraham's: ask for that which they hold most dear to see where their true allegiances are. Or like Job's: take away everything they have (up to their life) and see if they curse God's name. Or like Jesus': see if they're willing to stay the course even through a most horrible death.

Many will say they are Christian, but I think those numbers would quickly dwindle once put to any real test.

[Tcg]

Many will say they are Christian, but I think those numbers would quickly dwindle once put to any real test.

Nah, it's astonishingly easy to be a Christian. All one has to do is follow what they believe to be the teachings of Jesus Christ. It matters not what they conclude to be the teachings of Jesus as a consensus on this matter has never been reached. It is so easy to be a Christian that there are roughly 2.5 billion of them. So much for the narrow gate. It's the widest gate in the world.


Tcg

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #72]

An example criteria? You have to give away all that you have to the poor - which is why Jesus says it will be so hard for those that are rich. I don't see many so-called Christians doing anything near that, do you? I have no personal evidence at least.

Philanthropies the desire to promote the welfare of others, expressed especially by the generous donation of money to good causes.

This word happened to be selected in today's Generated Message.

As Above So Below
Philanthropies
Extra evidence is provided

I may be oversimplifying your point here, but sure, I can 100% put more meat on the bones of what it means to be in the Spirit. I've purposefully avoided that to keep posts simple and more on point. Does it mean "One Love"? Maybe. I tend to think that this is Jesus' way of simplifying the law, but that a Christian is no longer under the law but grace. Hence I don't love it as an answer.

You don't understand it as an appropriate answer?

Have you thought about flipping it on its head and viewing the answer as one which does not require an individual reach for the unattainable but rather for the possible to perform/act/do?

It seems to me that by placing an unreachable standard onto 'being a true Christian" one is defeated already...unless one is special and blessed with the perfection necessary to get to and maintain such a position.

But are you interpreting biblical Jesus correctly regarding this lofty position he 'expects' one to be at?

(Per the implied reference to Matthew 19 above, the rich man who Jesus makes the comment about keeps all the laws - his problem, and the real challenge, is taking the next step and living under grace.)

His problem is that he cannot see logic in practicing Philanthropies as Jesus quickly reveals this particular rich mans aversion to such practice...the rich man may be genuine in his religious practices but if those practices do not reflect goodness back into the community he is enriched by, then those practices are of no value to either the rich man or the community. Lose/lose.

To be clear, I'm not using other people's hypocrisy to avoid doing. I avoid doing because it's too hard!

What is hard about Love?

Why have you allowed yourself to place such things in the too hard to reach basket? Is the feeling that much of a luxury that you can therefore point fingers at those who proclaim to be something they are not?
Who are these ones proclaiming such and why are their lack of actions used by you as a device for obtaining the 'truth' of the matter?

Re: a test that cuts to the heart, there could be any number. It could be a test like Abraham's: ask for that which they hold most dear to see where their true allegiances are. Or like Job's: take away everything they have (up to their life) and see if they curse God's name. Or like Jesus': see if they're willing to stay the course even through a most horrible death.

These are understandable tests in accordance with setting up systems initially - each one rolling into the next as 'ages' or 'tributary zones' and truth told there will always be pain with transforming - and it is better to accept than to fear to accept...

Generally speaking, all the hard work has been done by those biblical characters that you mentioned...and we are in the best position ever to share the load together as a specie and reduce personal pain and sacrifice...'if only' it wasn't in the too hard basket....which fortunately it actually isn't.

Many will say they are Christian, but I think those numbers would quickly dwindle once put to any real test.

We don't have to say we are 'this' or 'that' in order to put practice to Love.

That is the truth.

[cms]

Also a word with my moderator hat on, careful about stating which faith is and isn't Christian, because it's a contentious issue, there is a blanket ban on that, check rule 15.

Gotit I'll try to get my point across without stepping over the line here.

Many nominally non Christians are loving, making them Christians; and many nominally Christians are hateful, making them non Christians.

That's just it. Christianity is a unifying faith.( That's what it's supposed to be ) The only dividing line that should separate Christian from non-Christian is loving others as yourself. " There are no Jews or Greeks, male or female.....", as well as Catholics, JW's, Islam, Buddhists, etc. etc. It's all one body of people who simply walk in the Spirit of God.

We don't? Not sure what you mean here, there are different sects of Buddhism, we say they are all Buddhism because of a few shared beliefs re: desire, suffering, rebirth and Karma. Doesn't this count?

Let me clarify, for example, we don't say that we're all Catholic or all JW's because of shared beliefs. Introduction of another belief divides the group and it's called something else. As defined by the NT, Christianity has one law, aka the law of the Spirit. But this is what mankind does, we separate ourselves into different groups and faiths, breaking up into umpteen pieces, sects, denominations etc.etc. and then fight among ourselves, ousting people who don't believe in this or that.

That's still missing the resurrection and an ever lasting life.

"My words are Spirit and they give life." When you have the Spirit of God, you have life.
P. S. Thanks for the advice, I'll try that.

[Diagoras]

That's still missing the resurrection and an ever lasting life. Is that not core to Christianity?

If I'm reading cms correctly, then apparently not. Thus, the concepts of a such things like 'non-Christian Catholics', and 'Orthodox Jewish Christians' are supposedly possible. Heck, a priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster can be a Christian!

Just my opinion, but claiming that "love thy neighbour as yourself" is not, and has never been, the sole prerogative of Christianity. Therefore to try and claim it as so just makes a nonsense out of the whole exercise.

Yes, I believe the Prophet Muhammad took a night trip to heaven on a winged horse called Buraq. No, Jesus wasn't the son of god, and he didn't rise from the dead after three days. I'm a good Muslim by faith, but in my heart, I'm obviously a true Christian.

[theophile]

Many will say they are Christian, but I think those numbers would quickly dwindle once put to any real test.

Nah, it's astonishingly easy to be a Christian. All one has to do is follow what they believe to be the teachings of Jesus Christ. It matters not what they conclude to be the teachings of Jesus as a consensus on this matter has never been reached. It is so easy to be a Christian that there are roughly 2.5 billion of them. So much for the narrow gate. It's the widest gate in the world.


Tcg

I wonder, if I was to consider the full population who believes they know what science says, would we not get to the same result?... Let's cut through all the crap that's out there. Even in this domain, while there is a lot of crap, there are also professional academics, a historical dialectic (call it progress or not), and rules that should be followed. Like, primary sources should be prioritized. Interpretations should be checked against original source language. Interpretations should not have inner conflicts. Interpretations with the highest explanatory power should be preferred...

I'm not saying it will eliminate all variation and produce a winner, but it will eliminate a lot of the crap.

[cms]

Thus, the concepts of a such things like 'non-Christian Catholics', and 'Orthodox Jewish Christians' are supposedly possible. Heck, a priest of the Flying Spaghetti Monster can be a Christian!

Diagoras. That's right. But, as per Scripture there is no Jew or Greek or Catholic for that matter, there's simply a person who produces the fruit of the Spirit or a person who does not, as it was in the beginning.

Just my opinion, but claiming that "love thy neighbour as yourself" is not, and has never been, the sole prerogative of Christianity. Therefore to try and claim it as so just makes a nonsense out of the whole exercise.

Again you're right in that it's just your opinion. According to Scripture those who love others as themselves have fulfilled the Law of Christ. This is pure Christianity without all the futile opinions, doctrines and philosophies of men.

[Tcg]

Many will say they are Christian, but I think those numbers would quickly dwindle once put to any real test.

Nah, it's astonishingly easy to be a Christian. All one has to do is follow what they believe to be the teachings of Jesus Christ. It matters not what they conclude to be the teachings of Jesus as a consensus on this matter has never been reached. It is so easy to be a Christian that there are roughly 2.5 billion of them. So much for the narrow gate. It's the widest gate in the world.


Tcg

I wonder, if I was to consider the full population who believes they know what science says, would we not get to the same result?... Let's cut through all the crap that's out there. Even in this domain, while there is a lot of crap, there are also professional academics, a historical dialectic (call it progress or not), and rules that should be followed. Like, primary sources should be prioritized. Interpretations should be checked against original source language. Interpretations should not have inner conflicts. Interpretations with the highest explanatory power should be preferred...

I'm not saying it will eliminate all variation and produce a winner, but it will eliminate a lot of the crap.

I have no idea how any of this addresses my reply. Perhaps it wasn't meant to. I addressed Christianity. You didn't.


Tcg

[cms]

. I avoid doing because it's too hard!

Theophile, I think William is correct in asking if you are interpreting biblical Jesus correctly regarding the lofty position he expects one to be at. Many will say that God expects perfection, as in never sinning, and that's why Jesus came, to be perfection for us because we can't do it. But, from what I understand, God doesn't expect this kind of perfection. I find that it's man who expects perfection, not God. I see this everyday in the world around me. My favorite saying is "We're going to do X, so this never happens again." I shake my head every time I hear it. But, God has given us the law of love. It's perfect for man because we are imperfect. Jesus didn't come to be perfection for us. He came to show us that perfection is possible, even under the most extreme circumstances. Loving others as ourselves requires forgiveness and mercy, and that's where grace comes in. Forgive and you will be forgiven. Yes, we flub up. But then, God expects us to turn that around and give through the Spirit.