Where is, and recognizing the devil

[nobspeople]

How can one recognize the devil?
"Be careful! Watch out for attacks from the devil, your great enemy. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for some victim to devour. Take a firm stand against him, and be strong in your faith" (I Peter 5:8-9)
There it's said he's a like a roaring lion, but here
"Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder his servants can also do it by pretending to be godly ministers" (II Corinthians 11:14-15).
it says he can be like an angel of light.

So which is it? A roaring lion or light angel? Contradictory much? Or maybe, the devil can be both things, at which point we're right back to the first question, how can one recognize him.

"Humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).
This seems to say if you're humble before god, you can resist the devil and he will leave you. But it still doesn't say how to recognize him.
This:
"He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).
doesn't seem to help recognizing him, either - just tells you what it claims the devil is.

Seems the devil is more of a spirit and less of a legitimate 'thing' (though some claim it's a very real person - see link below*, which seems odd to use the term 'person'), so maybe, to recognize it, when need to know where it lives today.
Pergamum was said to be “where the throne of Satan is” and “where Satan is dwelling.” (Revelation 2:13). However, some think this refers more to the satanic worship than an actual residence. Odd that god would let some think this and others think something else, but that's another story to address elsewhere.
The Bible says that the Devil rules over “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth,” so he does not dwell in any one physical location on earth but is confined to the vicinity of the earth.​—(Luke 4:​5, 6).

For discussion: How does one recognize the devil? Or does that even matter? And where is the devil today?

* https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family ... the-devil/

[William]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzp (666) - the sound Satan makes zipping up his pants.

That's a good one

1 Corinthians 1:27

[Diagoras]

[Replying to William in post #101]

1 Corinthians 1:27

I prefer 1 Corinthians 13:11 myself.

Regarding the ‘Satan=55’ and related posts/threads, I didn’t really want to have to go down this particular rabbit hole, but it looks like I might have to.

From here:
https://debatingchristianity.com/forum ... 3#p1068893

When I check out the value of the written words "The Devil" I get.

The Devil = 85

I then check the data I currently have for that number value;

Anunnaki
You Are

<snip>

EELRIJUE
Above board

None of this so far requires that I should 'see meaning'. Any meaning which can be "seen" has to have something to do with The Subject [in this case the Devil] being taught, and the way in which the subject is being taught...

...is The Subject which is being taught, being said to be true or false...

I can thus look closer at that list above, and pick out from that list, things I know are connected with the idea of The Subject.
I myself have not placed any of those connections onto The Subject. I simply know that they exist because I know others have placed those connections onto The Subject.

In viewing the list, I see no reason in this case to exclude anything on the list as non-relevant to The Subject.
This is not always the case on any given subject and often depends on the context in which the data is being examined with others.

<bolding mine>

In other words, there’s no guarantee that you have sufficient data, your method is to ‘pick out’ connections that other people have already made, and you sometimes exclude data depending ‘on context’.

It’s pseudoscience, basically.

From: https://debatingchristianity.com/forum ... 5#p1069615

Because you are not following what is going on, you are under the impression that the word-string values should all infer some kind of association with each other.
This is not the case - one is not looking for "some sort of hidden meaning or association" but rather, one is looking for obvious connection re any Subject being investigated...in this case - the subject of Satan.

<bolding mine>

No, of course we’re not looking for hidden meanings or associations – that would be silly! What we’re looking for are obvious connection. Totally different!

Congratulations on your finding a match to burn! This shows me that you have at least a fundamental understanding as to the process being investigated here.
Dig deeper.

At this point, I really don’t know if I’m being pranked or not. Was that a serious comment, or were you being sarcastic? I genuinely don’t know.

I get that, as per Post #12 here, you:

base all my assertions on the idea that there is a mind behind what we call "creation/the universe" and reasonably assume that such a Mind can prove its existence to the individual, through the use of this Message Generating Process.

But I feel that I can equally reasonably assume this process to be simply an example of Apophenia.

[Avoice]

[Replying to William in post #100]
So you think Satan can exist without God?

[William]

[Replying to William in post #100]
So you think Satan can exist without God?

No.

I think everything exists because of God.

[William]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #102]

My Reply

[Diagoras]

[Replying to 1213 in post #2]

Satan is not the enemy of God. Satan is the adversary. He has a tough Job. His job is to tempt people away from God.

From what a large number of Christians complain about, this seems like practically the easiest job imaginable. After all, everyone's supposedly born into sin.

He can only do what God allows. The scriptures clearly show this. Satan is only mentioned a couple times in the scriptures but he can't do anything unless God allows it.

But God's apparently fine with Satan tempting people away from God in ever greater numbers.

The idea if him being some fallen angel who is going to war it out with God comes from the church. That is dualistic thinking. Not monotheistic. There is only one great power and that is the God of Israel. There is no evil god (Satan) that will challenge God for supremacy.

What??? Like God might lose? Nonsense

Some evidence to back up this claim might be useful. I'm sure the church's claim can be backed up with evidence from the Bible to the same degree, though.

Satan gets a bad rap. He's only doing his job. If Satan were not doing his job how could we prove ourselves? We need temptation. No one gets to God without going through Satan.

So heaven's a two-step process, then? First, you have to go through Satan's 'temptation test'. Secondly, you have to go through Jesus (recalling a fairly well-known Bible quote). I suppose the Day of Judgement's a third step, actually.

If Satan refused to tempt me, does that mean Jesus (or God) will refuse me entry to heaven by reason of not having been properly tested? Seems that Satan can therefore bunk off from his responsibilities and ensure that no-one ever gets to heaven. I'm not sure God's thought this through very well...

[Avoice]

[Replying to Diagoras in post #106]

When it comes to Judaism and Christianity it is Christianity that has the burden of proof.
You see---THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES CAN NOT BE FALSE AND THE NEW TESTAMENT BE TRUE That is impossible. BUT...THE HEBREW SCRIPTURES CAN BE TRUE AND THE NEW TESTAMENT BE FALSE.
The Hebrew Scriptures MUST BE TRUE CHRISTIANITY depends on the integrity of the Hebrew Scriptures.

The Christian view of Satan is NOT found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Any claim made by the church must comport with the Hebrew Scriptures.

Christians need the Jews. The Jews don't need Christians. Judaism is the root. Anything that sprouts from the root can NOT grow contrary to it.

The Christian view of Satan is found no where in the Hebrew Scriptures. The church isn't allow to reshape characters. Satan's description is in the Hebrew bible. Any description Christians give of Satan must be upheld by what is in the Hebrew scri

[Diagoras]

The Hebrew Scriptures MUST BE TRUE. CHRISTIANITY depends on the integrity of the Hebrew Scriptures.

I inserted a full stop there because I thought the sentence parsing was unclear otherwise. Please let me know if I'm mistaken about your intended meaning.

How Christianity evolved from Judaism is a fascinating subject in and of itself. I started a debate on it a little while ago, but it didn't get a lot of interest.

The Christian view of Satan is NOT found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Any claim made by the church must comport with the Hebrew Scriptures.

Again, we see the problems of trying to use the Bible in order to discover things about Satan.

The Christian view of Satan is found no where in the Hebrew Scriptures. The church isn't allow to reshape characters. Satan's description is in the Hebrew bible. Any description Christians give of Satan must be upheld by what is in the Hebrew scri

Possibly hit 'submit' before finishing the post? Anyway, I think you've made your point pretty clearly.

Given that there's not a huge amount of material in the Old Testament about Satan, what can we usefully glean from it that will allow us to recognise him, and can we still assert that he's 'everywhere', constantly tempting humanity?

[theophile]

The Christian view of Satan is NOT found in the Hebrew Scriptures. Any claim made by the church must comport with the Hebrew Scriptures.

Again, we see the problems of trying to use the Bible in order to discover things about Satan.

Scholarship would confirm that Avoice is right about 'satan' in the OT, i.e., we have no reason to believe that 'satan' is an evil character there. 'Satan' is an adversarial spirit, or the adversary, which doesn't mean it is evil. In the OT, it is wholly focused against humankind (surprise, surprise, given our evil ways) than it is God.

Take the book of Job for instance (a prime reference). It is humankind (/Job) that the satan doubts. Not God.

Now, whether the satan is an agent of God, as many argue and Avoice suggests, I don't think there is explicit evidence for that either. This is an extrapolation based on facts like the satan showing up at God's court in Job 1. I think there are simpler and therefore preferable explanations, i.e., that the satan is simply a voice of dissent (/accusation) that arises against us and our rule of the earth (see Genesis 1 where that rule is assigned).

Now all that said, in the NT, we do see something markedly different (and scholarship would confirm that too). All the way up to Revelation where we see a heavenly battle between the dragon (/Satan) and the armies of heaven, and Satan being cast down to earth. The problem I see Avoice pointing out, and that I agree with, is that most people transpose that story to the beginning, or pre-beginning, versus the end. They take something like Milton's Paradise Lost as biblical fact, and this angelic 'fall from grace' as framing the entire biblical narrative versus being part of the throes of the end times.

The Christian view of Satan is found no where in the Hebrew Scriptures. The church isn't allow to reshape characters. Satan's description is in the Hebrew bible. Any description Christians give of Satan must be upheld by what is in the Hebrew scri

Possibly hit 'submit' before finishing the post? Anyway, I think you've made your point pretty clearly.

Given that there's not a huge amount of material in the Old Testament about Satan, what can we usefully glean from it that will allow us to recognise him, and can we still assert that he's 'everywhere', constantly tempting humanity?

I keep pushing this but nobody seems to care or listen i.e., We are poorly served if we treat Satan as a static character from beginning to end. We would be much better served if we apply a genealogy or evolution to the character. God prophecies this in Genesis 3, that there will be enmity (an adversarial relationship) between the serpent's offspring and humankind's.

That enmity is something that festers and grows over generations, culminating in something truly evil like we see in Revelation.

It is in that enmity or adversarial relationship (in all its various forms) that you should recognize the satanic. And per above, not all of it is evil.

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #109]

God prophecies this in Genesis 3, that there will be enmity (an adversarial relationship) between the serpent's offspring and humankind's.

Where is this 'offspring' of the serpents?

That enmity is something that festers and grows over generations, culminating in something truly evil like we see in Revelation.

As Avoice points out, [and evidence shows]

The Christian view of Satan is found no where in the Hebrew Scriptures. The church isn't allow to reshape characters. Satan's description is in the Hebrew bible. Any description Christians give of Satan must be upheld by what is in the Hebrew

Revelations is a culmination of the evolution of Christian mythology. - a mythology which reshapes the Hebrew character Satan, misrepresenting that character in the process.

It is in that enmity or adversarial relationship (in all its various forms) that you should recognize the satanic. And per above, not all of it is evil.

Clearly the Hebrew version of God [as character] is oft presented in an adversarial role [the garden story as one example].

Christianity took pagan imagery and superimposed it upon the character which it evolved as representing Satan. Pan was one such image which was hijacked and used for this purpose.


The Devil depicted as a blue angel in a Ravenna Mosaic from 6th century


The Devil as seen today - changed through evolution of Christian imagery


Pan