Without Jesus, I'm Nothing

[SallyF]

Is this a reasonable Christian claim …?

[Clownboat]

Which idea that is unreasonable are you talking about?

The idea that some Christians have that "Without Jesus, they are Nothing"

That is not an idea. It is a fact about some Christians.

Can one show others why one has every reason to claim the idea is unreasonable?

If you had a bump on your wrist, would it be reasonable of me to point to fairies as being the cause when I cannot show that fairies are real to begin with?
Reason would have me point to something that is real when explaining things. I find it unreasonable to conclude that unknowns or things we literally cannot distinguish from make believe are the cause of things. Including being nothing without said thing.

Consider this for reasonability:
Without Allah, you are nothing. Have I used reason? Are you convinced? I might as well inserted fairies or literally any made up explanation. I don't find such reasoning to be reasonable. Do you?

[Clownboat]

It may be that I am just being silly, but I am somewhat forced to be so on account that atheists tell me that atheism teaches nothing and is simply a position which describes 'lacking belief is gods".

Not just silly, but illogical.
The logic you failed to address was: "Arriving at, 'an atheist not being able to help someone be kind' does not follow and is an illogical conclusion."
Do you not see that what you said was a non sequitur?

As such, lacking belief in gods has nothing to teach us about kindness, therefore those who practice kindness, do so for other reasons. Not because they lack belief in gods.

Now we have a strawman.
I have not claimed that lacking a belief in a god teaches kindness. That would be another conclusion that does not follow from the statement being made.

So it is silly for an atheist to argue that the belief some theist's have re OPSubject, is 'unreasonable'

Every logical human should make such an argument IMO. It is unreasonable to prop up unevidenced god concepts as the cause for anything due to the fact that not a single god concept throughout the history of mankind has been revealed to be real.
All gods are false, except for mine is a hard pill to swallow.

and it is silly to argue that atheists are kind because they lack belief in gods.

This we agree, but I have not seen this argument being made.

In that, there appears to be no rational reason as to why someone would claim that they protest against unkindness BECAUSE they lack belief in gods [are atheists].

Still agree. Perhaps you can stop with this distraction?

Adjusting that to focus on the Thread OP Subject and subsequent posts, we can verify that all those who say it is unreasonable for Christians to claim that without Jesus they are nothing, are NOT saying so because they are atheists, but because they are whatever else it is that would motivate them to say so.

Yup. Like the idea we should not point to make believe to explain our reality. Wether we are talking about Jesus, Allah or fairies.

Lead by example. Be kind and be an example.
Religion or lack there of need not enter the equation.

What example?

Copy/paste: "Be kind and be an example."

What do you mean by 'be kind'?

The quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate.

Is the OP kind?

Of course it is. It is only asking a question afterall.

Is the author of the OP an accurate example of what 'being kind' is about?

Asking a question has nothing to do with kindness or being hungry.

What reason have you provided which supports the claim that religion need not enter the equation?

This one: "Can you point to a religion or god concept that is true".

Atheism isn't "it is unreasonable if folk turn to Jesus" in the same way that your veterinarian wouldn't claim that being a vet compels the vet to think "it is unreasonable if folk turn to Jesus". Something other than being a vet is doing the compelling and it would be silly for the vet to claim otherwise.

Yup, like understanding that we should not invent ideas/concepts and just accept them as true because they help to answer a question (like what happens when we die or how to be not 'nothing').

If I claimed that fairies took you to there fairy plain of existence when you die, would you find this to be reasonable?

I'm talking specifically about trying to convince humans that they are nothing...

Some Humans require being taken down a peg or two as part of their growth and maturing process.

Now we come full circle. You must first be convinced that you are sick (you're nothing), before you will buy the medicine (but I have Jesus to offer you to make you not be nothing).

The underlying hope of millions of theists cannot be underestimated or hand waved away as an unnecessary extra.

Sure it can, once you understand that they actually believe that they are sick and need the medicine, it's actually easy to understand.

Why - if atheism has no vested interest in the phrase - do atheists make it their personal business to say such is "unreasonable"? How is that reasonable?

Ask the person that, not the atheist.
Perhaps they were once bamboozled by a religion and find it kind to help those that have convinced themselves that they suffer from a sickness they cannot show exists.

If you ever try to convince one of my daughters that they are nothing, you'll know real quick that I have a vested interests. Trying being kind to them instead, it's not that hard.

Yes - of course. I wonder how you could possibly imagine that I would be unkind to your daughters.

I think you forgot that you asked me this: "Why - if atheism has no vested interest in the phrase - do atheists make it their personal business to say such is "unreasonable"? How is that reasonable?

I'm not an atheists, but if you or anyone tried to convince one of my daughters that they were nothing, surely you can understand why I would have a vested interest. You need to stop reading 'atheism' into areas it doesn't belong.

That aside, it is clearly NOT because you lack belief in gods, that you feel this necessity to protect your offspring from possible 'threats' and I would hope that you do not teach them that you are this way inclined because you are an atheist. Furthermore, I would hope that you wouldn't hesitate to bring them down a peg or two if you observed they were being unkind to others.

I'm not an atheist, so this doesn't apply to me.

Why would I trick myself into thinking that the expression "Without Jesus, I am Nothing" has to do with practicing unkindness?

Woops, you answered the wrong question.
Again: "To inform a child for example that they are nothing is something I find unkind."
Would you find it kind to tell a child such a thing?

Why should I believe the expression isn't based in the kinder understanding I mentioned - in that "what is unkind/unreasonable about the notion that a declaration is heard from some Christians, that they ONCE thought of themselves as "nothing" and it was this discovery of something [in their case - "Jesus"] which lifted them from those doldrums?"

For a person to believe that some concept provided them with worth is not unkind in itself. If the concept cannot be shown to exist, it is likely a silly or nonsensical reason, but not unkind.
I mentioned specifically:
Again again: "To inform a child for example that they are nothing is something I find unkind."
Would you find it kind to tell a child such a thing?

You have shown me no reason as to why I should think that the expression means those who use it, do so in order to be unkind to children.

Thanks the gods I did not show you such a thing! That would have been really wierd.

My parents threatened me with burning in hell. This emotional abuse was done due to faulty reasoning, not in order to be unkind to me as a child.

They accepted examples that could not be shown to be real. So faulty reasoning (fairies and the gods) and the accepting of it is the problem. Being Christian, Muslim a fairy believer or an atheists seems irrelevant.

[William]

The expression "Without Jesus I'm Nothing" - while it could be considered a statement, is really more of a platitude and as such does not offer those who hear it, something which could be considered interesting or thought-provoking.

Therefore - while it is a platitude - it is not something which can really be judged in terms of being "reasonable" or "unreasonable" because there is simply not enough information attached to it, to make the call.

What I do find unreasonable is the question about the platitude itself, when it is taken to mean something literal.

In this, I am saying that, for someone to express oneself as 'nothing' and another to interpret that as literally what the personality is saying through the platitude, such is an unreasonable thing to do.

[Clownboat]

The expression "Without Jesus I'm Nothing" - while it could be considered a statement, is really more of a platitude and as such does not offer those who hear it, something which could be considered interesting or thought-provoking.

Therefore - while it is a platitude - it is not something which can really be judged in terms of being "reasonable" or "unreasonable" because there is simply not enough information attached to it, to make the call.

What I do find unreasonable is the question about the platitude itself, when it is taken to mean something literal.

In this, I am saying that, for someone to express oneself as 'nothing' and another to interpret that as literally what the personality is saying through the platitude, such is an unreasonable thing to do.

I would not deny that for some, perhaps it is nothing more than a platitude.
You obviously did not live it (without Jesus you are nothing) like I did though.

The worst part of it all is how it justifies the division that this religion causes on the planet.
Us vs Them, and they are nothing because they don't share out god concept. Go team Us! Those thems will be in hell soon enough.

It is a hateful, devisive religious statement IMO. I find such things to be unkind.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #64]

The worst part of it all is how it justifies the division that this religion causes on the planet.

Sure seems that way. Seems that everything humanity touches, no matter how well intended it may be, ends up jacking humanity up in some fashion.

Us vs Them, and they are nothing because they don't share out god concept. Go team Us!

One of the reasons, for some people, this christianity is so inviting. Some people just want to feel better than others.

I find such things to be unkind.

True, but that's what some people want. They like treating others as if they're 'beneath' them, like the 'know' more than others. Even the whole "I'm going to heaven and you're not unless you believe in what I do" is spiteful. I've long said christianity is a selfish belief system. And while this seems true, it's also divisive at its core. But, looking at their god and its actions, we shouldn't be surprised.

[William]

"Us Vs Them" is a human construct which permeates throughout human cultures. It is unreasonable to point the finger at one of those cultures and claim 'it is them' as if 'they' are the only ones doing it and if they stopped doing it, the world will somehow fix itself.

[Diogenes]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #38]

Tricking people for profit surely isn't kind though.

Humans are apparently not naturally inclined to kindness.

I disagree. Tho' we have our moments of unkindness, in general all healthy humans value kindness. Our very lives depend on it. We evolved, we survived because we were kind to each other - we cooperated. It is in our self interest to be kind and cooperate. Even the 'lower' mammals are kind to each other and have a sense of reciprocal fairness. We didn't need any particular religion or 'savior' to teach us this. We know it. Even the animals do.

We even have inter species friendships. We love and our kind to our pets. They are loyal and kind to us.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interspecies_friendship

[We_Are_VENOM]

.

Sensationalized thread. If you don't believe in Jesus, then why concern yourself with the truth value of the question?

[Diogenes]

.

Sensationalized thread. If you don't believe in Jesus, then why concern yourself with the truth value of the question?

Out of kindness.

We care about others losing their grip on reality or thinking they are worthless. Besides, I DO believe in Jesus. I believe he lived, like Socrates, Plato, Gandhi. I believe in his core moral teachings. I just don't believe he is god or the rest of the supernatural nonsense. I do not believe he claimed to be God, despite what a delirious Saul-Paul and the author of the gospel of John wrote.

[William]

[Replying to Clownboat in post #38]

Tricking people for profit surely isn't kind though.

Humans are apparently not naturally inclined to kindness.

I disagree. Tho' we have our moments of unkindness, in general all healthy humans value kindness. Our very lives depend on it. We evolved, we survived because we were kind to each other - we cooperated. It is in our self interest to be kind and cooperate. Even the 'lower' mammals are kind to each other and have a sense of reciprocal fairness. We didn't need any particular religion or 'savior' to teach us this. We know it. Even the animals do.

We even have inter species friendships. We love and our kind to our pets. They are loyal and kind to us.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interspecies_friendship

If it is natural for humans to be kind and therefore my comment that "humans are apparently not naturally inclined to kindness" is untrue, what unnatural thing compels humans to be unkind?

Or could it be that both states are natural enough, depending upon circumstance and individuals simple adopt the best way they can find as a means of being able to sustain the governing emotions required for either state?

Understanding that the individuate position most humans are born to experience, the underlying motivation is intentionally selfish because recognition of the importance of the self becomes the initial propellent for all subsequent actions employed.

In that, it doesn't matter how one chooses to observe Jesus - as an historical image more human than the biblical Jesus - or how the bible images him - Socrates, Plato, Gandhi, Paul, David, Abraham or Glen - got their motivation for kindness from the same source - as we all do, when unkindness is dropped from our programs.