Those who consider the Bible inerrant and literally true focus their arguments on the claim the Earth is less than 10,000 years old and against evolution.
I suggest the focus would be more apt on the Biblical claim the Earth is flat. While the argument about evolution rages in these circles, there appears to be a reluctance in fundamentalist circles to accept the idea the Bible assumes the Earth is flat.
Questions for debate, "Does the Bible claim or assume the Earth is flat?"
... and
Why do fundamentalists focus on the creationism/young Earth debate, and ignore the issue of whether the Bible posits a flat Earth?
Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
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Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #71Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:34 am
Can you move the moon? No.
Is the moon therefore stationary? No.
Which of these two is false?
[I am embarrassed to even respond to this silliness, but, perhaps for the last time:]
Wow! Really? I cannot even imagine the logical fallacies required to come up with this latest nonsense.
I cannot move the moon, but the moon is not stationary [or 'immovable']. These statements are not in conflict.
Given sufficient resources, the moon could, I suppose, be moved along a different vector. Nonetheless it continues to move; it circles the Earth about once a month [hence the word 'month], as it also follows the Earth's orbit around the Sun while the Sun continues to move in this expanding universe.
Change and movement are an essential, basic part of existence, as Heraclitus observed about 2500 years ago.
Incidentally, Heraclitus coined the term logos long before the author of the gospel of John was born.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #72Right so you agree we can't move the moon, therefore so far as we (people, those to whom God's words are addressed) are concerned the moon is indeed immovable, you also agree it is not stationary,Diogenes wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 3:40 pmSherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sun Mar 06, 2022 11:34 am
Can you move the moon? No.
Is the moon therefore stationary? No.
Which of these two is false?
[I am embarrassed to even respond to this silliness, but, perhaps for the last time:]
Wow! Really? I cannot even imagine the logical fallacies required to come up with this latest nonsense.
I cannot move the moon, but the moon is not stationary [or 'immovable']. These statements are not in conflict.
Given sufficient resources, the moon could, I suppose, be moved along a different vector. Nonetheless it continues to move; it circles the Earth about once a month [hence the word 'month], as it also follows the Earth's orbit around the Sun while the Sun continues to move in this expanding universe.
Change and movement are an essential, basic part of existence, as Heraclitus observed about 2500 years ago.
Incidentally, Heraclitus coined the term logos long before the author of the gospel of John was born.
_________________________
It would be a false to assume one does not respond to a post because I agree with it, or cannot easily refute it.
Many posts are not worthy of response.
You agree then, the Bible is absolutely correct to say the earth is immovable and that does not conflict with reality.
Are we done now? this is pretty much trivial.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #73What was there about "Given sufficient resources, the moon could, I suppose, be moved along a different vector. Nonetheless it continues to move...." you did not understand? Both the moon and the Earth move and continue to; therefore they are not 'immovable' and the Bible is wrong. Both the Earth's and the moon's vector's can be changed and have changed in the past when influenced by sufficient forces.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:47 am
Right so you agree we can't move the moon, therefore so far as we (people, those to whom God's words are addressed) are concerned the moon is indeed immovable, you also agree it is not stationary,
You agree then, the Bible is absolutely correct to say the earth is immovable and that does not conflict with reality.
Are we done now? this is pretty much trivial.
NOW we're done.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #74Its infantile speculation, that's what I understand, go on, move the moon, can you? well, can you???Diogenes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:08 pmWhat was there about "Given sufficient resources, the moon could, I suppose, be moved along a different vector. Nonetheless it continues to move...." you did not understand?Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:47 am
Right so you agree we can't move the moon, therefore so far as we (people, those to whom God's words are addressed) are concerned the moon is indeed immovable, you also agree it is not stationary,
You agree then, the Bible is absolutely correct to say the earth is immovable and that does not conflict with reality.
Are we done now? this is pretty much trivial.
Nobody can move the moon, if you think you can then yes, we are pretty much done.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #75<bolding changes mine>Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 4:21 pm Well you were wrong, your entire position is that "today's science" is the manner in which the Bible should have expressed things, why? why not 5,000 years ago's science? why not 5,000 years into the future's science? Can you really not see? no matter how it was expressed it would always be inaccurate, never quite matching reality and why? because science is not reality it is a model and these models change.
Look at how Newton modelled gravitation and space and time? absolutely wrong by today's science and it is likely Einstein's models will be found to be wrong so in 5,000 years time we'll perceive it as a simplified, old fashioned model.
The history of scientific modelling of the universe shows a consistent improvement in accuracy. Just think how powerful God would prove to have been if he'd channeled the biblical authors to describe the world in ways that would prove correct only after hundreds or thousands of years. He could have specifically mentioned the existence of black holes and exoplanets, for example.
The 'further ahead' God could write about, the more compelling the evidence that he transcends time and space and is truly omniscient. But he doesn't do that to even the slightest degree. He restricts himself to only the knowledge available to the people of the time - knowledge that God must know is wrong.
Why would he do that? One answer that fits the known facts very well is that 'God' was made up by primitive tribes, and so couldn't know anything more than what they already 'knew' themselves to be true.
Sounds very much like special pleading to me.This is all very simple - you do not understand the Bible and you cannot ever understand it until God grants you that understanding.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #76Your effort to move the goal posts, to entirely change the argument, to claim another has asserted what he has not, is noted.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 3:42 pmIts infantile speculation, that's what I understand, go on, move the moon, can you? well, can you???Diogenes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 1:08 pmWhat was there about "Given sufficient resources, the moon could, I suppose, be moved along a different vector. Nonetheless it continues to move...." you did not understand?Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 11:47 am
Right so you agree we can't move the moon, therefore so far as we (people, those to whom God's words are addressed) are concerned the moon is indeed immovable, you also agree it is not stationary,
You agree then, the Bible is absolutely correct to say the earth is immovable and that does not conflict with reality.
Are we done now? this is pretty much trivial.
Nobody can move the moon, if you think you can then yes, we are pretty much done.
The issue is whether the Earth moves (it does), or is as the Bible claims 'immovable.' Even resorting to " 'stationary' does not mean immovable," literally trying to make words mean their opposite, will not pull your feeble argument out of it's slough of ignorance.
The argument is old and too familiar. It reminds me of the Church forcing Galileo Galilei to recant his claim that the Earth moves around the Sun, rather than remaining immovable [stationary ]. Whatever else Galileo may have said to appease, he famously mutters, "And yet it moves."
So here we are again, 1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable;”
- "Although it does move."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_yet_it_moves
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #77Exactly. Well put. Apologists love to find examples where God, supposedly using the Bible, makes some profound statement that man in the moment cannot understand; yet years later this great and hidden truth of 'god's' turns out to be true.Diagoras wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:26 pm<bolding changes mine>Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 4:21 pm Well you were wrong, your entire position is that "today's science" is the manner in which the Bible should have expressed things, why? why not 5,000 years ago's science? why not 5,000 years into the future's science? Can you really not see? no matter how it was expressed it would always be inaccurate, never quite matching reality and why? because science is not reality it is a model and these models change.
Look at how Newton modelled gravitation and space and time? absolutely wrong by today's science and it is likely Einstein's models will be found to be wrong so in 5,000 years time we'll perceive it as a simplified, old fashioned model.
The history of scientific modelling of the universe shows a consistent improvement in accuracy. Just think how powerful God would prove to have been if he'd channeled the biblical authors to describe the world in ways that would prove correct only after hundreds or thousands of years. He could have specifically mentioned the existence of black holes and exoplanets, for example.
The 'further ahead' God could write about, the more compelling the evidence that he transcends time and space and is truly omniscient. But he doesn't do that to even the slightest degree. He restricts himself to only the knowledge available to the people of the time - knowledge that God must know is wrong.
Why would he do that? One answer that fits the known facts very well is that 'God' was made up by primitive tribes, and so couldn't know anything more than what they already 'knew' themselves to be true.
Sounds very much like special pleading to me.This is all very simple - you do not understand the Bible and you cannot ever understand it until God grants you that understanding.
Yet the truth is this 'god' merely repeats men's knowledge of the day in which the 'scripture' was written. Hence apologists are stuck with a flat and immovable Earth circled by the Sun. What recourse is left to these apologists? They can insist the Earth really IS flat and immovable, or they can claim the Bible says the opposite of what it actually says.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #78Quantitative accuracy yes but not qualitative accuracy. Newton's model is qualitatively very very inaccurate. For example, for centuries we used a model where time is universal, synchronized clocks remained synchronized forever no matter their histories. Today we use a different model, very different and in the future we might abandon that model too. So the models change but they are not qualitatively more accurate. They are models, made up representations of what we think is reality.Diagoras wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:26 pm<bolding changes mine>Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Sat Mar 05, 2022 4:21 pm Well you were wrong, your entire position is that "today's science" is the manner in which the Bible should have expressed things, why? why not 5,000 years ago's science? why not 5,000 years into the future's science? Can you really not see? no matter how it was expressed it would always be inaccurate, never quite matching reality and why? because science is not reality it is a model and these models change.
Look at how Newton modelled gravitation and space and time? absolutely wrong by today's science and it is likely Einstein's models will be found to be wrong so in 5,000 years time we'll perceive it as a simplified, old fashioned model.
The history of scientific modelling of the universe shows a consistent improvement in accuracy.
Again are black holes real? they arise from our models, they might not be what we think they are. Humans always think that the way we see things is the correct way, but humans always thought that from the earliest times.Diagoras wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:26 pm Just think how powerful God would prove to have been if he'd channeled the biblical authors to describe the world in ways that would prove correct only after hundreds or thousands of years. He could have specifically mentioned the existence of black holes and exoplanets, for example.
Besides the Bible's value is spiritual not physical, it is concerned with salvation not science.
Also regarding black holes - look up the meaning of Tartaros, the greek word Τάρταρος : "Tartarus is the place where certain sinful angels are presently kept bound." - just think about it...
I doubt that, if the Bible had contained some precise physical claim that was only recently verified people would not suddenly believe in God or believe the Bible was inspired. Much more likely is the claim that aliens visited the earth in the distant past and ancient writers somehow carried scraps of scientific knowledge from ancient legends and they ended up in the Bible, that is what would happen.Diagoras wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:26 pm The 'further ahead' God could write about, the more compelling the evidence that he transcends time and space and is truly omniscient. But he doesn't do that to even the slightest degree. He restricts himself to only the knowledge available to the people of the time - knowledge that God must know is wrong.
Exactly and there's nothing the Bible could contain that would convince a skeptic, there are always ways of manufacturing other explanations, like for example ancient aliens or perhaps a much more ancient civilization that knew all this stuff but died off leaving only traces of knowledge, legends etc.
Well it's true, we cannot develop a knowledge of God without God's help, spiritual knowledge is not discoverable as is material knowledge, it must be revealed, only the supernatural act of enabling a mind to perceive things can do that, only God can do this for us, until then we live in a world of our own making.Diagoras wrote: ↑Mon Mar 07, 2022 4:26 pmSounds very much like special pleading to me.This is all very simple - you do not understand the Bible and you cannot ever understand it until God grants you that understanding.
Humans do not naturally want to be bothered by God, they do not want to believe in God, they do not want to have to think about such things, God is unwelcome, to the natural mind.
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Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #79Of course we can. We just make up a load of stuff and tell everyone it's true and that they have to accept it on faith.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:26 am Well it's true, we cannot develop a knowledge of God without God's help, ......
There you have it. Spiritual knowledge is an alternative term for made up stuff. No gods necessary. Enabling a mind to perceive spiritual knowledge is often abbreviated to indoctrination.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:26 am ......spiritual knowledge is not discoverable as is material knowledge, it must be revealed, only the supernatural act of enabling a mind to perceive things can do that, only God can do this for us, until then we live in a world of our own making.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Re: Does the Bible Declare the Earth is Flat?
Post #80You mean like you do with evolution?brunumb wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:11 pmOf course we can. We just make up a load of stuff and tell everyone it's true and that they have to accept it on faith.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:26 am Well it's true, we cannot develop a knowledge of God without God's help, ......
No, again, that's evolution your thinking of.brunumb wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:11 pmThere you have it. Spiritual knowledge is an alternative term for made up stuff. No gods necessary. Enabling a mind to perceive spiritual knowledge is often abbreviated to indoctrination.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:26 am ......spiritual knowledge is not discoverable as is material knowledge, it must be revealed, only the supernatural act of enabling a mind to perceive things can do that, only God can do this for us, until then we live in a world of our own making.