Where is, and recognizing the devil

[nobspeople]

[William]

[theophile]

Satan. It's not in Genesis 3 but foretold there by God.

Where? Book, Chapter, Verse.

Thank you

.

Connect Genesis 3:15, where God foretells "enmity between [the serpent's] offspring and hers," with Revelation 12:4 --

"And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, ready to devour her child."

And, a bit later in Revelation 12:9, we see that the dragon, "that ancient serpent", is called "the devil and Satan."

So with that beginning and end in mind, now imagine all the generations of offspring in between. And the evolution that happens. Not in a Darwinian sense, but again, due to the corrupting force of enmity compiled over eons of time.

Although Rev 12:9 does identify "that ancient serpent", as "the devil or Satan." It doesn't say this particular serpent is the same as the snake appearing in Gen. 3. In fact, Gen. 3:1 identifies this snake as "the most clever of all the wild animals."

I'm not suggesting the serpent of Gen 3 is Satan. At least not at the time of Gen 3. I think it is a good creature per God's benediction in Gen 1 (i.e., that the animals God made were "good"). All we can conclude from Rev 12:9 is a connection between Satan (/the dragon) and the serpent. (Is that connection one of identity? Maybe, if the serpent lives forever. I prefer genealogy. i.e., It is a connection of ancestry.)

But you're right, it might be a reference to a whole other serpent altogether versus the serpent of Gen 3. That said, the serpent of Gen 3 is at the origin of enmity in the bible. And again, 'satan' means adversary, which is practically synonymous with enemy... So a case can be made that Gen 3, as the origin of enmity, is also the origin of the satanic, and its serpent is rightly connected to the dragon of Rev 12:9.

Whether they are one and the same serpent or connected by ancestry - either way, something has become twisted in the time in between: from good creature to "deceiver of the world."

So I fail to see any foretelling going on at all.

What do you want to call God's speech in Gen 3:14-19? A curse? Whatever we call it, it's giving us a glimpse into what's going to unfold.

Enmity between serpent and humankind. More difficult labor. Husband's ruling over their wives. An earth that resists us...

[theophile]

[William]

[Replying to theophile in post #122]

Or it might just be a case of human projecting their own evil onto some other race of beings/entity.

Enmity between serpent and humankind. More difficult labor. Husband's ruling over their wives. An earth that resists us...

Clearly - as per the storyline - these are curses given by the God-imaged therein - but are they realistic - do they align with what is actual fact - is the Earth resisting humanity really? Is there really an enmity between the species or is that concocted?

Or is it more likely that Christian mythology got things terribly wrong in the eagerness to interpret events through the particular lens of belief that they used?

[Abigail]

There is some evidence that Lucifer, "Light Bringer", and Jesus are one and the same due to Satan and Jesus both being called, the morning star.

Interestingly, at least to me , is the theory this is so because the serpent , thought to be Satan, in Eden was actually Jesus.
Leading the first people to think for themselves, obtain knowledge, rather than exist as mindless slaves to what was the actual Satan.

Not God but rather the demigod acting in God's stead. That one that commanded Adam & Eve not to eat of that tree that would bestow the fruit of intellect.

After they did obtain knowledge that Demigod cursed them by making it so they'd exercise their new found intellect with consequences.
And this then explains all the violence God committed or had committed in his name.

And after awhile the actual God sent "himself" to earth to undo all that the Demigod did. Or, was allowed to do.

This though is why the church decreed dualism a heresy: God and the Devil are the same one.

Why would an omniscient God create everything in six days and judge it good having the foreknowledge of The Fall due to having predestined all things?

And why would God allow Satan to live after Satan and 1/3rd of God's angels lost their war against God while in heaven? And then make Satan lord of the world? And allow Satan to return to heaven to confer with him? (Job)

How would humans seek out God if not for being taught they need salvation because their troubles in life are due to being beset by Satan?

And if there is a God, as described in the bible, why does "he" need his ego stroked by lesser beings he predestined to be fallen,damned,and separated from himself?
When no thing can ever be made separated from its source.

[Miles]

[William]

[Replying to Miles in post #126]

The point being - regardless of whether one is dealing with fiction or non-fiction, if one changes the storyline to suit ones argument, then ones argument becomes invalid.

The Serpent in the Garden Story clearly has limbs and can speak human language, and fits the description of the Serpent character rather than that of a snake.

Clearly it suggests no such thing.

re the storyline;

The Serpent could speak human language. [Genesis 3:5]

The Serpent originally had limbs [Genesis 3:14]

[William]

[Replying to Abigail in post #125]

There is some evidence that Lucifer, "Light Bringer", and Jesus are one and the same due to Satan and Jesus both being called, the morning star.

Both the words "Lucifer" and "Jesus" have the same numeric value. [Source]

Lucifer: In Roman folklore, Lucifer ("light-bringer" in Latin) was the name of the planet Venus, though it was often personified as a male figure bearing a torch. The Greek name for this planet was variously Phosphoros (also meaning "light-bringer") or Heosphoros (meaning "dawn-bringer").

Roman folklore being inserted into Christian mythology isn't surprising, but superimposing that onto the Hebrew character Satan, isn't helpful.

Definition of Satan [SOURCE]
1: the angel who in Jewish belief is commanded by God to tempt humans to sin, to accuse the sinners, and to carry out God's punishment
2: the rebellious angel who in Christian belief is the adversary of God and lord of evil

When no thing can ever be made separated from its source.

Yet it can at least be done, that folk can be made to think they are separate from Source, through instilled beliefs to that extent.

[Miles]

[William]