Where is, and recognizing the devil

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nobspeople
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Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

How can one recognize the devil?
"Be careful! Watch out for attacks from the devil, your great enemy. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for some victim to devour. Take a firm stand against him, and be strong in your faith" (I Peter 5:8-9)
There it's said he's a like a roaring lion, but here
"Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. So it is no wonder his servants can also do it by pretending to be godly ministers" (II Corinthians 11:14-15).
it says he can be like an angel of light.

So which is it? A roaring lion or light angel? Contradictory much? Or maybe, the devil can be both things, at which point we're right back to the first question, how can one recognize him.

"Humble yourselves before God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you" (James 4:7).
This seems to say if you're humble before god, you can resist the devil and he will leave you. But it still doesn't say how to recognize him.
This:
"He was a murderer from the beginning and has always hated the truth. There is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies" (John 8:44).
doesn't seem to help recognizing him, either - just tells you what it claims the devil is.

Seems the devil is more of a spirit and less of a legitimate 'thing' (though some claim it's a very real person - see link below*, which seems odd to use the term 'person'), so maybe, to recognize it, when need to know where it lives today.
Pergamum was said to be “where the throne of Satan is” and “where Satan is dwelling.” (Revelation 2:13). However, some think this refers more to the satanic worship than an actual residence. Odd that god would let some think this and others think something else, but that's another story to address elsewhere.
The Bible says that the Devil rules over “all the kingdoms of the inhabited earth,” so he does not dwell in any one physical location on earth but is confined to the vicinity of the earth.​—(Luke 4:​5, 6).

For discussion: How does one recognize the devil? Or does that even matter? And where is the devil today?

* https://www.focusonthefamily.com/family ... the-devil/
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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William
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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #121

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #120]
Genesis 3:1
The snake was the most clever of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made. The snake spoke to the woman and said, “Woman, did God really tell you that you must not eat from any tree in the garden?”

Point being, the devil and Satan is never described as a "wild animal," making a pretty clear distinction between the snake in Revelation and the snake in Genesis.
Genesis 3:1
“Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”
Snake = a long limbless reptile which has no eyelids, a short tail, and jaws that are capable of considerable extension. Some snakes have a venomous bite. No snakes have arms or legs and no snakes can speak human languages.

Serpent = a sly or treacherous personality, especially one who exploits a position of trust in order to betray it.
Moreover, "old snake" as it appears in Rev. 12:9 could well be a metaphor, particularly when one considers the distinct differences between a dragon and a snake.
The Serpent in the Garden Story clearly has limbs and can speak human language, and fits the description of the Serpent character rather than that of a snake.
Revelation 12:9
It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.
Revelation 12:9
“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

Dragons in mythology also have limbs and some can even speak human languages...

Take care where one gets ones interpretations from...as there is obviously distinct variation between snakes and serpents.
So I fail to see any foretelling going on at all.
It is most obviously not a prophetic message, I agree. Rather, it appears to be a message of a time prior to human beings.

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theophile
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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #122

Post by theophile »

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:24 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 6:11 pm
Miles wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 4:15 pm
theophile wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 3:41 pm Satan. It's not in Genesis 3 but foretold there by God.
Where? Book, Chapter, Verse.

Thank you

.
Connect Genesis 3:15, where God foretells "enmity between [the serpent's] offspring and hers," with Revelation 12:4 --

"And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, ready to devour her child."

And, a bit later in Revelation 12:9, we see that the dragon, "that ancient serpent", is called "the devil and Satan."

So with that beginning and end in mind, now imagine all the generations of offspring in between. And the evolution that happens. Not in a Darwinian sense, but again, due to the corrupting force of enmity compiled over eons of time.
Although Rev 12:9 does identify "that ancient serpent", as "the devil or Satan." It doesn't say this particular serpent is the same as the snake appearing in Gen. 3. In fact, Gen. 3:1 identifies this snake as "the most clever of all the wild animals."
I'm not suggesting the serpent of Gen 3 is Satan. At least not at the time of Gen 3. I think it is a good creature per God's benediction in Gen 1 (i.e., that the animals God made were "good"). All we can conclude from Rev 12:9 is a connection between Satan (/the dragon) and the serpent. (Is that connection one of identity? Maybe, if the serpent lives forever. I prefer genealogy. i.e., It is a connection of ancestry.)

But you're right, it might be a reference to a whole other serpent altogether versus the serpent of Gen 3. That said, the serpent of Gen 3 is at the origin of enmity in the bible. And again, 'satan' means adversary, which is practically synonymous with enemy... So a case can be made that Gen 3, as the origin of enmity, is also the origin of the satanic, and its serpent is rightly connected to the dragon of Rev 12:9.

Whether they are one and the same serpent or connected by ancestry - either way, something has become twisted in the time in between: from good creature to "deceiver of the world."

Miles wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:24 pm So I fail to see any foretelling going on at all.
What do you want to call God's speech in Gen 3:14-19? A curse? Whatever we call it, it's giving us a glimpse into what's going to unfold.

Enmity between serpent and humankind. More difficult labor. Husband's ruling over their wives. An earth that resists us...

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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #123

Post by theophile »

William wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:59 pm "The corrupting force of enmity" is a generated message which implies that he who ordered it, was the author of the corruption.
Genesis 3:15
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.”
[Attributed to YHVH]
Since that is an unacceptable conclusion to draw, "The corrupting force of enmity" is an untruthful message, and need be withdrawn on account of that.
Sure. Here is where I wish I could go deep on biblical Hebrew, or we had a resident expert on this board. (The English only gets us so far.)

Lacking that, one must appeal to logic, as you do. And ask what reason God would have for causing enmity between these newly formed creatures? It just doesn't make any sense unless God is petty and vindictive.

Barring that, which I don't think fits the broader narrative, the curse of Gen 3:14-19 is not so much authored by God as it is God's declaration of the natural consequences of the character's actions. (It is more a prophecy - hence why I say foretelling.)
Last edited by theophile on Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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William
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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #124

Post by William »

[Replying to theophile in post #122]

Or it might just be a case of human projecting their own evil onto some other race of beings/entity.
Enmity between serpent and humankind. More difficult labor. Husband's ruling over their wives. An earth that resists us...
Clearly - as per the storyline - these are curses given by the God-imaged therein - but are they realistic - do they align with what is actual fact - is the Earth resisting humanity really? Is there really an enmity between the species or is that concocted?

Or is it more likely that Christian mythology got things terribly wrong in the eagerness to interpret events through the particular lens of belief that they used?

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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #125

Post by Abigail »

There is some evidence that Lucifer, "Light Bringer", and Jesus are one and the same due to Satan and Jesus both being called, the morning star.

Interestingly, at least to me ☺️, is the theory this is so because the serpent , thought to be Satan, in Eden was actually Jesus.
Leading the first people to think for themselves, obtain knowledge, rather than exist as mindless slaves to what was the actual Satan.

Not God but rather the demigod acting in God's stead. That one that commanded Adam & Eve not to eat of that tree that would bestow the fruit of intellect.

After they did obtain knowledge that Demigod cursed them by making it so they'd exercise their new found intellect with consequences.
And this then explains all the violence God committed or had committed in his name.

And after awhile the actual God sent "himself" to earth to undo all that the Demigod did. Or, was allowed to do.

This though is why the church decreed dualism a heresy: God and the Devil are the same one.

Why would an omniscient God create everything in six days and judge it good having the foreknowledge of The Fall due to having predestined all things?

And why would God allow Satan to live after Satan and 1/3rd of God's angels lost their war against God while in heaven? And then make Satan lord of the world? And allow Satan to return to heaven to confer with him? (Job)

How would humans seek out God if not for being taught they need salvation because their troubles in life are due to being beset by Satan?

And if there is a God, as described in the bible, why does "he" need his ego stroked by lesser beings he predestined to be fallen,damned,and separated from himself?
When no thing can ever be made separated from its source.
“In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.” *Attributed to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, though this is debated.

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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #126

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:06 pm [Replying to Miles in post #120]
Genesis 3:1
The snake was the most clever of all the wild animals that the Lord God had made. The snake spoke to the woman and said, “Woman, did God really tell you that you must not eat from any tree in the garden?”

Point being, the devil and Satan is never described as a "wild animal," making a pretty clear distinction between the snake in Revelation and the snake in Genesis.
Genesis 3:1
“Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?”
Snake = a long limbless reptile which has no eyelids, a short tail, and jaws that are capable of considerable extension. Some snakes have a venomous bite. No snakes have arms or legs and no snakes can speak human languages.

Serpent = a sly or treacherous personality, especially one who exploits a position of trust in order to betray it.
Moreover, "old snake" as it appears in Rev. 12:9 could well be a metaphor, particularly when one considers the distinct differences between a dragon and a snake.
The Serpent in the Garden Story clearly has limbs and can speak human language, and fits the description of the Serpent character rather than that of a snake.
Clearly it suggests no such thing.
Revelation 12:9
It was thrown down out of heaven. (This giant dragon is that old snake, the one called the devil or Satan, who leads the whole world into the wrong way.) The dragon and its angels were thrown to the earth.
Revelation 12:9
“And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”

Dragons in mythology also have limbs and some can even speak human languages...
Ah yes, mythology. Okay, I can buy that: Genesis and Revelation = mere myth.

.

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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #127

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #126]

The point being - regardless of whether one is dealing with fiction or non-fiction, if one changes the storyline to suit ones argument, then ones argument becomes invalid.
The Serpent in the Garden Story clearly has limbs and can speak human language, and fits the description of the Serpent character rather than that of a snake.
Clearly it suggests no such thing.
re the storyline;

The Serpent could speak human language. [Genesis 3:5]

The Serpent originally had limbs [Genesis 3:14]

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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #128

Post by William »

[Replying to Abigail in post #125]
There is some evidence that Lucifer, "Light Bringer", and Jesus are one and the same due to Satan and Jesus both being called, the morning star.
Both the words "Lucifer" and "Jesus" have the same numeric value. [Source]

Lucifer: In Roman folklore, Lucifer ("light-bringer" in Latin) was the name of the planet Venus, though it was often personified as a male figure bearing a torch. The Greek name for this planet was variously Phosphoros (also meaning "light-bringer") or Heosphoros (meaning "dawn-bringer").

Roman folklore being inserted into Christian mythology isn't surprising, but superimposing that onto the Hebrew character Satan, isn't helpful.

Definition of Satan [SOURCE]
1: the angel who in Jewish belief is commanded by God to tempt humans to sin, to accuse the sinners, and to carry out God's punishment
2: the rebellious angel who in Christian belief is the adversary of God and lord of evil
When no thing can ever be made separated from its source.
Yet it can at least be done, that folk can be made to think they are separate from Source, through instilled beliefs to that extent.

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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #129

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:46 am [Replying to Miles in post #126]

The point being - regardless of whether one is dealing with fiction or non-fiction, if one changes the storyline to suit ones argument, then ones argument becomes invalid.
The Serpent in the Garden Story clearly has limbs and can speak human language, and fits the description of the Serpent character rather than that of a snake.
Clearly it suggests no such thing.
re the storyline;

The Serpent could speak human language. [Genesis 3:5]

The Serpent originally had limbs [Genesis 3:14]
No mention of "limbs" in Genesis 3:14 whatsoever. Moreover:

ser·pent
/ˈsərpənt/

noun: serpent; plural noun: serpents
1. literary a large snake.
source: Oxford Languages Dictionary
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Genesis 3:14
So the Lord God said to the snake, “You did this very bad thing, so bad things will happen to you. It will be worse for you than for any other animal. You must crawl on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life.

Snakes don't have legs.

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Re: Where is, and recognizing the devil

Post #130

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #129]
No mention of "limbs" in Genesis 3:14 whatsoever. Moreover:
The implication is clearly there in that the Garden God is attributed in Genesis 3:14 with punishing the Serpent with a curse which makes the serpent a belly-crawler.
You appear to be arguing that it was always a belly-crawler, which is not following the storyline, and therefore your argument cannot be accepted as valid.
ser·pent
/ˈsərpənt/

noun: serpent; plural noun: serpents
1. literary a large snake.
source: Oxford Languages Dictionary
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Genesis 3:14
So the Lord God said to the snake, “You did this very bad thing, so bad things will happen to you. It will be worse for you than for any other animal. You must crawl on your belly and eat dust all the days of your life.

Snakes don't have legs.
Nor do they speak human languages.

I would caution anyone not to accept that because nowadays 'Serpent' means 'snake' [according to some dictionaries] that this means one can rightfully manipulate the story to align with the modern day meaning of the word.

The word used in the garden story was "Serpent" and what it is described as prior to the Gods curse upon it - is definitely NOT a snake.

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