According to Pat Robinson (unfortunately there's no Grimm Reaper smilie available) Russia is being used by god to fulfill prophecy (who god can't do its own dirty work is another raging question, but it's not the first time we hear this from biblical 'know-it-alls' like patty).
It's worth noting, about good, ancient patty:
Robertson, who turns 92 this month, is a serial doomsday cheerleader: in the 1970s, he predicted a 1982 ending, the 1990s, he predicted a 2007 ending, 2020, he predicted Donald Trump would win reelection ― “without question” ― and it would lead to the end. (In that case, it wasn’t a war that would end the world, as he is currently predicting, but something a lot more natural, like an asteroid.)
William wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:24 pm
...would it be presumptuous of me to think that - in that day - the JWOrg would have had then-present beliefs regarding the interpretation of parts of prophecy that "The King of The North" was Adolph Hitler?
Hello debatingchristianity.com,
Thank you for your question. Since the internet did not exist back then and there was no jw.org (the name of a religious WEBSITE) I cannot answer your question. Sorry.
Jehovah's Witnesses (formerly known as the International Bible Students) have existed as a modern day religious organisation since the late 1800s, and Jehovahs Witnesses (often abbreviated to >> JWs) have for a long time published their understanding of various prophecies.
Have a nice day,
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
I am confused as to why you are thanking me for a question that you cannot answer.
In the spirit of the question I asked - the gist of it wasn't about the modern-day internet 'organization' but the assumption that back in the days of the rise of Nazism - Jehovah's witnesses were organized enough to be a group.
That explained, are you now able to answer my question? [reframed for your convenience]
Q:...would it be presumptuous of me to think that - in that day - the JW's would have had then-present beliefs regarding the interpretation of parts of prophecy that "The King of The North" was Adolph Hitler?
William wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:30 pm Q:...would it be presumptuous of me to think that - in that day - the JW's would have had then-present beliefs regarding the interpretation of parts of prophecy that "The King of The North" was Adolph Hitler?
If you are asking if the Jehovahs Witnesses in the 1930's/40s identified "The King of The North" as Adolph Hitler I would say no because we have never believed the The King of The North (or the South) was a single individual. Note the point in The Watchtower 1941 340 par 10 Line 3 : "The king of the north" is not an individual man, but a composite personage" That same Watchtower made the following identifications
"In A.D. 1914 "the king of the north" included Germany, Austria and Italy ..." -w1941 p. 280 par 25 and at the time of publication (1941) "The Axis powers, that is to say, "the king of the north," ... have continued their "lightning-war" with the undeniable purpose of gaining world domination" - w1941 p. 293 par 31
I do not know if the early bible students (prior to the 1940s) had an understanding of this particular prophecy but Jehovahs Witnesses believe full understanding of bible prophecy often comes at the moment they are being fulfilled.
William wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 2:30 pm Q:...would it be presumptuous of me to think that - in that day - the JW's would have had then-present beliefs regarding the interpretation of parts of prophecy that "The King of The North" was Adolph Hitler?
If you are asking if the Jehovahs Witnesses in the 1930's/40s identified "The King of The North" as Adolph Hitler I would say no because we have never believed the The King of The North (or the South) was a single individual. Note the point in The Watchtower 1941 340 par 10 Line 3 : "The king of the north" is not an individual man, but a composite personage" That same Watchtower made the following identifications
"In A.D. 1914 "the king of the north" included Germany, Austria and Italy ..." -w1941 p. 280 par 25 and at the time of publication (1941) "The Axis powers, that is to say, "the king of the north," ... have continued their "lightning-war" with the undeniable purpose of gaining world domination" - w1941 p. 293 par 31
I do not know if the early bible students (prior to the 1940s) had an understanding of this particular prophecy but Jehovahs Witnesses believe full understanding of bible prophecy often comes at the moment they are being fulfilled.
So basically prophesy is open to "whatever is happening at the present time" and so what was once seen as "The King of The North" wasn't correctly identified at that present time, by those who made such claims.
So it amounts to guesswork in that in the present time, "Russia" is identified as being in that role - but again - in a future time, it may be proven to be incorrect identification, just like past predictions proved to be incorrect.
William wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:40 pm
So basically prophesy is open to "whatever is happening at the present time" ...
No I would say, the Jehovahs Witness position is the correct understanding of prophecy is validated by what is happening at the time of its fulfillment.
William wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:40 pm... so what was once seen as "The King of The North" wasn't correctly identified at that present time, by those who made such claims.
No, we believe that the KOTN was indeed correctly identified at that time*.
William wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 5:40 pm... "Russia" is identified as being in that role - but again - in a future time, it may be proven to be incorrect identification ...
Anything is possible but since we are seeing the fulfillment of bible prophecy in the same way as we saw it in the 1940s we see no reason to doubt the present day understanding is also correct.
* I'm sure you are aware that it is generally accepted that the identify of the Kings of Daniel 11 changes with each epoch.
* I'm sure you are aware that it is generally accepted that the identify of the Kings of Daniel 11 changes with each epoch.
No I wasn't.
But I don't think that something which is open-ended to that extent, can be rightfully called prophesy - although as a "prediction of what will happen in the future" such is open to being fulfilled as long as it isn't fixed or static.
I suppose that is why one is able to use such to point out similarities while at the same time allowing one to be incorrect about particulars - because no particulars are really given in the first place.
In that sense, it is classic type of "readings" so-called psychics employ - worded in such a way as what is said can fit most occasions likely to arise and impress folk enough to buy into it.
Search: Where does The King of The North derive?
Study article 20: July 13-19, 2020. Who is 'the king of the north' today, and how will he come to his end? Knowing the answer can strengthen our faith and ...
Not that this is a criticism mind you - because I think that if the mind behind creation can drop these little hints in order to keep folk interested, that cannot be a evil thing in itself.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:57 am
Ad hominem aside
Nonsense. JW's are discouraged from thinking independently, even in their publications. Cmon now.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:57 am
, the video is a very brief overview of our present beliefs regarding the interpretation of the parts of Daniel 11 we believe is being fulfilled in this our 21st century, designed for beginner non-witnesses. Its aim is (hopefuly) to arose the curiosity of its novice viewers ( some of which will be hearing the expression "King of the North" for the very first time), to investigate further, or at the very least ask some pertinent questions.
Um, excuse me...but you just shared with me the SAME VIDEO that you shared on the other post.
What are you talking about?? Nothing was "explained", the same blank assertions were made...and the same questions that I asked remains.
The kings of the north/south in Daniel 11 are both unidentified in Biblical text, and it is mere speculation/conjecture that Russia is any of the culprits in either case.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:57 am
JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES SERIOUS BIBLE STUDENTS
Jehovah's Witnesses themselves have been analysing Daniels prophecies for over a century and have produced several in depth, verse by verse volumes of biblical evidence for their conclusions. Most JWs have individually spend many years even decades becoming thoroughly familiar with the justification behind our interpretations.
To see some of the material (including online lectures) on Daniel 11, please use the search box on our official website SEE EXAMPLE LINK https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=Daniel+11
JW
So basically, "we don't know, we are assuming".
That's what I got out of it. Just as I presumed.
Smh.
And I noticed that you ignored my question of "If I shared with you a video, would you view it".
Remember, you gave me props for being open minded for watching a video that you provided, but I can't get the same respect in return?
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:22 am
KINGS OF THE "NORTH" & "SOUTH"
The Prophecy in Daniel 11 gives the above biblical (not secular ) name to what seems to be a series of world powers. This is not because they are north or south of the equator or their geographical location in relation to each other, but because they are biblically associated with the nations originally situated to the north and south of the ancient nation of Israel during Daniels day.
For a more detailed analysis please use the search bar presented in the post above.
Not so fast. Remember, you are part of "God's organization"...therefore, the bar is set high when it comes to Biblical interpretation.
I expect God's organization to not tell me what it "seems", but what it "is".
So, please; explain to me how Russia and Ukraine are "Biblically associated with the nations originally situated to the north and south of the ancient nation of Israel during Daniels day".
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:46 am No, that is called an interpretation.
WHAT IS BIBLICAL INTERPRETATION?
Interpretation is the action of explaining the meaning of something. Biblical interpretation is when bible scholars take a verse (ie specific words) and use other words to explain what they believe to be the meaning the author is conveying.
To illustrate: Jesus said "my sheep will hear my voice" these words can be interpreted to mean "his disciples will follow/obey him" of course Jesus didn't say those words, they are not in the bible, the different words, replacing the Word "sheep" with "disciples" ect is the given INTERPRETATION.
In short, when using exactly the same words its called reading or quoting, when using different words its called paraphrasing or explaining.
I agree with you, but I expect actual TRUTH VALUE coming from "God's organization", instead, I am getting hunches, speculations, assumptions, and in most cases, down right GUESSES.
That isn't how prophets and true people from God's "selection" operate.
JehovahsWitness wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 8:46 am
Not everybody agrees with any given biblical interpretation. (It is not a question of being "lied to" it is simply a matter of disagreeing). That said, most people can recognise an interpretation when thesy see them and know that by definition the explanation will entail using different words.
JW
All I ask for is a sound justification as to why the Russia/Ukraine stuff has a correlation to Daniel 11.
Just give me a sound justification...can I at least get that much?? Don't just throw it in there as if as if it is a mere fact of the matter, and then spread it to the masses as if you've "cracked the case" or something, as the gentleman did in the video.
You know full well that it is nonsense. You know it.
The kings of the north/south in Daniel 11 are both unidentified in Biblical text, and it is mere speculation/conjecture that Russia is any of the culprits in either case.
We can both agree that although Daniel gives us details about the King of the North/South both remain unidentifed in scripture. This does not mean however they are unidentifiable. Perhaps your position that Daniel 11 is of no use to to anyone as it cannot be related to any reality we or anyone has or will experience or that God intended it to have no meaning or for its meaning to be an eternal mystery, but that is not our position.
We do not hold it to be wrong to try and understand Daniel 11? We view it as prophecy and believe we should be on the lookout for how prophecy is fulfilled.
DANIEL 12:4
As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about,* and the true knowledge will become abundant.”
We_Are_VENOM wrote: ↑Thu Mar 10, 2022 9:51 pm Remember, you are part of "God's organization"...therefore, the bar is set high when it comes to Biblical interpretation. ... I expect God's organization to not tell me what it "seems", but what it "is".
No offense intended but Jehovahs Witnesses are not overly concerned with human expectations, we are primarily concerned with divine expectations. Scripture does not indicate that infallibility is one of them. We propose bible based interpretations with no assumption of infallibility.
He's one of the richest televangelists on TV. It's his job to see a correlation between contemporary politics and bible prophecy.
The arbitrary nature of prophecy allows for this.
Rumors and rumors of wars applies throughout the history of human civilization.
For those that hold all things in the scripture are revelations of their God, something that might be considered is that those are proofs of God having predestined the future. As is revealed in scripture also.
All things happen according to the will of God. His having predestinated all things for his purpose, and due to his zeal for his own glory.
Which then would make for the question regarding prayer. What is that except for our asking God to reconsider on our behalf.
“In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.” *Attributed to President Franklin D. Roosevelt, though this is debated.
(unfortunately there's no Grimm Reaper smilie available) Russia is being used by god to fulfill prophecy (who god can't do its own dirty work is another raging question, but it's not the first time we hear this from biblical 'know-it-alls' like patty).
