Something can't come from nothing

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nobspeople
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Something can't come from nothing

Post #1

Post by nobspeople »

Recently I saw someone elsewhere make the comment, in regards to how 'the universe came to be', that you can't get something (the universe as it is today) from nothing (from before the universe existed), only to go on and say something similar to 'god is the beginning and the end', in reference to creating the universe.
I found it hypocritical to say one believes 'something can't come from nothing' and, at the same time, say 'god created the universe', appearing to mean god was here before anything and thus, came from nothing (as the person making this statement seemed to believe god was here before anything else - seemingly 'coming from nothing').

For discussion:
Where did god come from?
How can god 'come from nothing' but not anything else?
For those that claim 'god has always existed': how? And how can one make such a claim without understanding 'always' and 'eternity', as those aren't concepts humanity can understand fully, in regards to any deity, with their limited minds?
Have a great, potentially godless, day!

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Tcg
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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #111

Post by Tcg »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:57 pm Whether the universe had a beginning or not, the logical impossibility of the universe being the source of its own existence suggests a source beyond it.
And then a source for that source... and a source for the next source... and then a source for the source of the source's source...

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Tcg
To be clear: Atheism is not a disbelief in gods or a denial of gods; it is a lack of belief in gods.

- American Atheists


Not believing isn't the same as believing not.

- wiploc


I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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William
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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #112

Post by William »

[Replying to JoeyKnothead in post #109]
I contend my argument stands to logic, where folks claim the universe was created, they should be able to show it was.
That is actually illogical Mr.Knothead. for two reasons;

1: The idea that the universe popped out of nowhere is special pleading
As folks propose their God "popped out of nowhere"?
If folk claim that, then yes. Otherwise, no.
2: The logical observation that the universe must have being made out of something must imply it was set into motion by something else. "Created".
So I ask how'd this "creator" get created.
Why do you suppose this has to be the case, that you're doing the asking? Did someone claim this to be the case? If so, you would be best to direct your question to the one making the claim.
Logically, the universes existence is the very thing which should show one that the universe was created.
No, the most logical conclusion is there it sits.
There it sits, is acknowledging its existence. Acknowledging its existence isn't reaching any logical conclusion as to how it got to sit there.
Also, that it 'sits' implies that it is finished - as in - complete or not going anywhere - in a state of static. Is that what you are saying?
We have no means of knowing if it existed in a prior form.
So we have no means in which to rule that out as a possibility.
Unless you can prove that the universe has always existed, I have no choice but to accept your argument as unsupported opinion, of the special pleading variety.
I NEVER claimed the universe always existed, so hold no obligation to defend that position.
Yet that position is necessary in order for you to hold it as something other than special pleading.
It either proofed into existence, or it has always existed. If you say that it always existed, then you would not have to explain how it came into existence.
Unlike the theist who'd claim their creator God always existed.
Well some gods are said to have been created and others are said to have always existed. Unlike some of the non-theists, I do not bunch them altogether and claim that they all must have been created.
Are you claiming that they must have been created?
It is possible that the universe has always existed in this manner, but does not assume that the shape that it takes in its manifestation is simply a mindless process, rather than a mindful purposeful reinvention of itself from the one state to the next - and has been happening like that eternally as in - it has always existed as something which begins and ends and begins again ad infinitum essentially meaning that it has never begun or ended at all. All along, mindfully creating itself into whatever it wills to.
So I ask what evidence can be brought to bear to show there's some cosmic mind involved?
We do not have to go far from home to observe the evidence first hand. Clearly Mother Nature herself shows us plainly enough that mindfulness is involved in the matter of biological life forms.
But just as interestingly, there are also a number on non-theists who also believe that the universe had a beginning and that it popped into existence from nowhere.
That's on them, not me.
So are we to assume from this that you are a non-theist who believes that the universe has always existed and therefore never had a beginning? Is this the position you are arguing from?
But like I said, they both believe that it - an obvious something - came from nothing.

aka. Special Pleading by both parties.
That too, is on them. I won't be beholden to support claims I don't make.
What about claims that you do make? Are you beholding to those?
Logically The Mind/consciousness/self awareness is therefore that which shapes the matter which we call "The Universe" - and anyone who does not think that the universe has a mind, is not paying attention to the one piece of evidence which indisputably shows that mind and matter interrelate as The Ghost and The Machine.
So now you're saying I'm not paying attention, as if this entire exchange between us has been you carrying on with the typing, and me just sitting here coloring on the walls?
I wasn't referring to you personally as I do not know what your position on the matter of mind is Joey. I was simply saying that the evidence is there for those who are paying attention.

As I said at the beginning of this our exchange.
What has been established beyond reasonable doubt, it that it is illogical that "something that is, derived from something that isn't", which firmly places the idea of a Creator/Creation as primary for genuine and sustained consideration.

That is still on the table for discussion. Unless of course, you have wall-coloring to do...

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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #113

Post by William »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:47 am
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:57 pm Whether the universe had a beginning or not, the logical impossibility of the universe being the source of its own existence suggests a source beyond it.
And then a source for that source... and a source for the next source... and then a source for the source of the source's source...

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Tcg
What does this mean?

Are you one of those non-theist I was just mentioning to Joey about, who think that all Gods must have a beginning, or does it mean something else?

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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #114

Post by Miles »

Athetotheist wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 11:11 pm
Miles wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:12 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:57 pm Whether the universe had a beginning or not, the logical impossibility of the universe being the source of its own existence suggests a source beyond it.
How about a conversion from one state of existence into another, like electromagnetism where an existing electrical state is converted into a magnetic field?


.
If electromagnetism and a magnetic field are both part of the universe, neither can be the source of the universe.
I said, "like."


.

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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #115

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:02 pm Clearly Mother Nature herself shows us plainly enough that mindfulness is involved in the matter of biological life forms.
It doesn't appear 'plainly enough' to me. In fact, the diversity of weird life forms suggests complete lack of mindfulness being involved to me. As does the rest of the universe for that matter.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #116

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 12:02 pm What has been established beyond reasonable doubt, it that it is illogical that "something that is, derived from something that isn't", which firmly places the idea of a Creator/Creation as primary for genuine and sustained consideration.
What hasn't been established is what preexisted this iteration of matter/energy that we refer to as the universe. If it was not 'nothing' and we know nothing about it, then how can we deduce that it involved some sort of mindful creator? One can stick that on the table for consideration but there is nowhere to go after that. It's all just imaginative speculation. When you look at this universe and everything within it, it is hard to imagine it all arising from some sort of mindful creator as far as I am concerned. Extend that into the domain of the Christian creator God, then it all even becomes an absurdity.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.

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William
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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #117

Post by William »

[Replying to brunumb in post #115]
It doesn't appear 'plainly enough' to me.
I am aware that this is the case with most folk.
In fact, the diversity of weird life forms suggests complete lack of mindfulness being involved to me. As does the rest of the universe for that matter.
Can you expand on this idea?

Recently in GMs the subject has arisen re "Sea-Life".
William: We experience fear in order to give us the opportunity to overcome that which triggers the fear.

Context
Sea
Is
Deranged
William: The sea is indeed filled with a deranged assortment of critters...
Educational
The sea is indeed filled with a deranged assortment of critters
William: Indeed, it is...but still the deranged can come about...become arranged...
The deranged can come about...become arranged. = 315
The Flying Spaghetti Monster = 315

I imagine that the FSM would fit well enough in the neighborhood of The Sea and its deranged assortment of critters
That the diversity of weird life forms suggests complete lack of mindfulness to you, really needs explaining as it would seem quite in line with mindfulness being at the helm and certainly there are very good examples of apparently differing weird critters working together in an arranged manner, rather than not - so if ones focus is on the form rather than the function, one can indeed perceive disorder but the perception may be delusional, since the self arranging is a flag signifying mindfulness.

The outward expression of an inward reality.
[I do have something substantial to work with.]

One only has to watch/listen to Sir David Attenborough with that understanding in mind, to appreciate there has to be mindfulness involved... even [as one example] in relation to the inter-relationship between plants ants and mycelium.

So perhaps what you are saying is that the mindfulness doesn't appear to be overly intelligent rather than that there is no mindfulness involved?

If so, then at this early stage of the universes unfolding, this would be expected to be the case, wouldn't you agree?

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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #118

Post by Athetotheist »

Tcg wrote: Thu Mar 10, 2022 11:47 am
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:57 pm Whether the universe had a beginning or not, the logical impossibility of the universe being the source of its own existence suggests a source beyond it.
And then a source for that source... and a source for the next source... and then a source for the source of the source's source...

Image
How does materialism escape that trap?

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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #119

Post by Athetotheist »

Goat wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:48 pm
Athetotheist wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:42 pm
Goat wrote: Wed Mar 09, 2022 12:41 am
bjs1 wrote: Mon Feb 07, 2022 11:06 am [Replying to nobspeople in post #1]

If I understand it correctly, the argument is that something cannot come from nothing within the natural world. Therefore, there must exist Something outside of time and space which is not subject to natural laws and capable of creating something from nothing. The title we give to this creative Something that is outside of time and space is “God.”
One thing about the concept of 'nothing' is that the physicists concept of 'nothing' is not the same as the philosophers concept of nothing.

What are the properties of nothing? If nothing exists, then nothing has no properties, and anything can happen.
The definition used by philosophers is accurate. Materialists commit a fallacy of equivocation when they change it.

If nothing exists, then one of the properties lacking is existence; therefore, nothing can happen.
What evidence do you have that the philosophers are right on this? Do you have any objective and tangible evidence? Can you even define what the properties of 'nothing' are? How do you know that the philosophizers are right, and the 'materialists' are wrong? How do you know that 'nothing can happen' if nothing exists?

In fact, the statement 'Nothing exists' is self contradictory , since if it is exists, then it is something, and therefore is not nothing.
Nothing existing would mean no existence. To suggest that nothing would exist as something is just playing with semantics.

To know that philosophers use the word "nothing" correctly, all the evidence anyone needs can be found in a dictionary.

I think you're under a considerably greater burden of proof to establish that something could happen if there were nothing.

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Re: Something can't come from nothing

Post #120

Post by William »

[Replying to brunumb in post #116]
What has been established beyond reasonable doubt, it that it is illogical that "something that is, derived from something that isn't", which firmly places the idea of a Creator/Creation as primary for genuine and sustained consideration.
What hasn't been established is what preexisted this iteration of matter/energy that we refer to as the universe.
Scientists are working on finding this out. IF they are correct about the infinitesimally small object which exploded and produced what we currently are experiencing as a stage in the universes unfolding, THEN at least we can identify said object as "The Seed of Origin"

What, if anything pre-existed that - is beyond our current ability to know.
If it was not 'nothing' and we know nothing about it, then how can we deduce that it involved some sort of mindful creator?


Easily enough. We know that mind is integrated with matter. Thus we have clear evidence that a mindful creator is involved, even if that creator-mind is unfolding from the Seed of Origin which birthed the universe we are witnessing through experience.
Being that it has emerged since the germination {Big Bang} it has had a great amount of time in which to learn to effect the matter to whatever it wills, even to the point of doing so here on this planet, as we ourself bear witness, even to the degree that we refer to that as "reality".
One can stick that on the table for consideration but there is nowhere to go after that.
There is always somewhere to go. Testing it out for starters.
If:
There is a mind behind creation
THEN:
We ought be able to communicate with it, using whatever physical devices we can create in order to do so.
It's all just imaginative speculation.
How do you know that? Or are you imagining that is all that it is?
When you look at this universe and everything within it, it is hard to imagine it all arising from some sort of mindful creator as far as I am concerned.
That is very understandable. However, even being that it is hard to imagine, it is not impossible. I haven't had any insurmountable problem in at least subjectively verifying It exists, or finding ways in which to communicate with It.
Extend that into the domain of the Christian creator God, then it all even becomes an absurdity.
As came up recently in my communion with said Mind -
Where is Truth?
We Groove Together
Recovery
The resistance is generally traceable to the theistic approach of religionizing said intelligent mind.
What is noticeable about theism - even where it has branched into religionism - is that this is a type of means of leaving a trail in ones wake, and the trail itself shows efforts of The Mind to engage with human minds for the purpose of connecting - but often religious leaders have used this as a means of securing station/position within hierarchal structures which require said leaders to be the middle-person between The Mind and the individual - something easily enough achieved since the individual can be unsure of themselves and even afraid of doing that, so they willingly allow for the medium to act as go-between...which more often than not leads to little to no meaningful connection at all.

This also occurs in theistic non-religious structures - mostly because individuals doubt themselves sincere and honest enough to drop the medium and connect in a self-responsible manner.

Even so, I write that as an observation rather than a judgement. The Mind is aware that it is a scary thing for individuate human minds to willingly do, and while ideally if everyone did do it, much good could be accomplished, that most do not do it, does not affect the agenda of said Mind.

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