Allow me, if you will, to take us years into the future (assuming humanity doesn't kill itself first). Humanity has been able to build androids.
Some are used for physical or dangerous work, others for service, other's still for 'personal use' (ew). They must be programmed to do their tasks.
What about 'care giving'.
To do so, humanity decides we have to program 'morality' into them, as morality is programmed into humans all the time - seems like a doable task.
For discussion:
Will humanity ever be able to program morality into a machine?
Why or why not?
Programming morality
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Re: Programming morality
Post #11So what? That doesn't address what I said. That's the whole point of proposing non purely algorithmic computers.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:26 am That's the rub though, they cannot. Non-computable means there is no algorithm possible, not even in principle, no amount of skill and design can lead to a workable algorithm.
Did you even read what I said? This would be an example of "sometimes they don't halt" I mentioned.The simplest example of non computability is the famous "halting problem..."
Re: Programming morality
Post #12But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:36 amSo what? That doesn't address what I said. That's the whole point of proposing non purely algorithmic computers.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:26 am That's the rub though, they cannot. Non-computable means there is no algorithm possible, not even in principle, no amount of skill and design can lead to a workable algorithm.
Did you even read what I said? This would be an example of "sometimes they don't halt" I mentioned.The simplest example of non computability is the famous "halting problem..."
Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems, the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
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Re: Programming morality
Post #13That's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
A non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
Is there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
Re: Programming morality
Post #14My post was in error, this is what I intended to write:Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmThat's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
OK lets look at that example?Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmA non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmIs there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
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Re: Programming morality
Post #15That there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the tableSherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pmMy post was in error, this is what I intended to write:Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmThat's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
OK lets look at that example?Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmA non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmIs there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed
"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."
That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
Re: Programming morality
Post #16Well just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pmThat there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the tableSherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pmMy post was in error, this is what I intended to write:Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmThat's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
OK lets look at that example?Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmA non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmIs there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed
"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."
That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
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Re: Programming morality
Post #17Seems to be experts that are trying to solve this problem. Will they? Only time will tell. I wouldn't bet against them given enough time.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:07 pmWell just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pmThat there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the tableSherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pmMy post was in error, this is what I intended to write:Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmThat's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
OK lets look at that example?Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmA non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmIs there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed
"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."
That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
Re: Programming morality
Post #18No, this is a question of rigorous logic, mathematics. These are provable claims, here's the proof that the halting problem is non-computable:nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:37 pmSeems to be experts that are trying to solve this problem. Will they? Only time will tell. I wouldn't bet against them given enough time.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:07 pmWell just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pmThat there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the tableSherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pmMy post was in error, this is what I intended to write:Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmThat's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
OK lets look at that example?Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmA non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmIs there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed
"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."
That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
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Re: Programming morality
Post #19Not saying it's not an issue now. The link I provide earlier says this as well. But it also says computer scientist are working on the problem and in a couple of decades, the expect to have it.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:12 pmNo, this is a question of rigorous logic, mathematics. These are provable claims, here's the proof that the halting problem is non-computable:nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:37 pmSeems to be experts that are trying to solve this problem. Will they? Only time will tell. I wouldn't bet against them given enough time.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:07 pmWell just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pmThat there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the tableSherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pmMy post was in error, this is what I intended to write:Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmThat's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
OK lets look at that example?Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmA non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmIs there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed
"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."
That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.
Other links showing, it may not be possible now, but could be in the future:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/19/tech ... ality.html
https://futureoflife.org/2016/07/06/evo ... reloaded=1
https://nautil.us/ai-is-already-making- ... hat-13740/
https://analyticsindiamag.com/can-moral ... e-systems/
https://topic.alibabacloud.com/a/the-re ... 48807.html
Last edited by nobspeople on Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Have a great, potentially godless, day!
Re: Programming morality
Post #20Have what? it is impossible, logically impossible. Did I misunderstand you perhaps?nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:18 pmNot saying it's an issue now. The link I provide earlier says this as well. But it also says computer scientist are working on the problem and in a couple of decades, the expect to have it.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 2:12 pmNo, this is a question of rigorous logic, mathematics. These are provable claims, here's the proof that the halting problem is non-computable:nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:37 pmSeems to be experts that are trying to solve this problem. Will they? Only time will tell. I wouldn't bet against them given enough time.Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 1:07 pmWell just to be clear the limitations on computability are inescapable, it is not a question of time or resources, it is not a current limitation but an absolute one, all any computer can do is compute computable things.nobspeople wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:56 pmThat there may not be computers that can do what humans do, I would add 'not yet'. I remember being told 'computers can't do this or that' when I was young, now many computers can. With advancements, who knows what computers will bring to the tableSherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:48 pmMy post was in error, this is what I intended to write:Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmThat's the point. A computer doesn't have to be an purely algorithmic machines, the fact that such machines cannot solve non-computable things is a non-issue, because no one should be expecting a non-algorithmic computers to be solve such non-computable problems. If you objection is with the term "computers" itself then replace it with a generic "machines."Sherlock Holmes wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 11:52 am But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
"But a "computer" solves computable problems, it cannot solve non-computable, that's why they're called "computers", there are no non-algorithmic computers, an analog computer (though sometimes unpredictable) does not compute non-computable things.
OK lets look at that example?Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmA non-computable function, as in one particular non-computable function? Yeah I can . But I cannot give any example of a machine that can solve general non-computable functions.Give me an example of a machine - any machine - that can compute a non-computable function, can you?
I'm not defending anything he claims, I merely pointing out that there are such views and that they seem to imply that the human brain can solve non-computable problems, if that's true then no computer can do what we can.Bust Nak wrote: ↑Mon Mar 28, 2022 12:25 pmIs there? We face the very same limitations as an machines. We can analyse non-algorithmic problems, but we can't solve them. Sometimes we make mistakes, sometimes we can't halt.As I mentioned there are strong indications that the human brain can solve non-algorithmic problems.
Well, he is not here to defend his claims. Care to have a go?the theoretical physicist Roger Penrose for example wrote about this in detail. If this is true then clearly no algorithmic (digital or analog) machine can do what the brain can do, it is fundamentally beyond the reach of machines.
https://futurism.com/the-evolution-of-a ... programmed
"It may be quite a bit further out, but to computer scientists, that means maybe just on the order of decades."
That said, I don't think humanity will ever be able to agree on if a computer will have morality as people have different views on morality that's ever changing.