Right for life - can you have it both ways?

[nobspeople]

Typically, christians don't approve of abortion, citing the 'preciousness of life', among other things.
Do these same christians oppose the death penalty? Should they?

For discussion:
Is it hypocritical to oppose abortion but support the death penalty? Or, like all things christian, you simply ignore one aspect of this faith while holding on tight to another to support your POV?
Is the 'abortion vs. death penalty' thinking (abortion = bad death penalty = good) nothing more than a male dominated religion further suppressing women? Maybe this helps understand why god's considered male and not female?

[The Tanager]

I don't believe, in a case such as this, you can weigh a real, current life against 'potential' future lives. That, to me, is making an excuse for vengeance:

Why can’t you weigh such things? It could be making an excuse for vengeance, but that doesn’t seem necessary.

But as I said. to each their own. It's not 'against the law' to be a hypocrite. Just.... distasteful...?

I don’t see how you’ve shown that it is necessarily hypocrisy.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #31]

Why can’t you weigh such things?

Because you don't know the potential (future) possibilities

It could be making an excuse for vengeance...

It is.

I don’t see how you’ve shown that it is necessarily hypocrisy.

Hypocrites don't typically see hypocrisy. Or don't care if they exhibit it.
When one says all life is precious, then takes a life (no matter the reason) it voids the 'all life is precious' argument.
One can try to justify it by saying 'well, taking this life may, potentially, prevent other lives from being taken' is making an excuse for vengeance/revenge. If all life is precious, the murderer (or potential murderer) should be allowed to live their LIFE. Otherwise, one would be saying 'all life is precious except for the life of one who took (or potentially could take) another life'.
Which is fine, but be honest about it and say it this way.

[tokutter]

Right to life??

What about all the children who never were given life by Christians for whatever reason. My sister is a Christian, she had one child, she's 50 and healthy her whole life. How many children "If she could have asked them" would have wanted life? But wait there can't be a reason can there? Christians don't want to allow any reasons for someone's unwanted pregnancy. In fact it's worse isn't it. It's completely thought out and premeditated, NO I'm not bringing life into the world. Unlike someone who maybe wanted to have children later but .....ooops.

In the end all this flailing about moral or immoral about abortion or any other issue is moot. Jesus's get out of jail free card allows for you to do anything.........just bend the knee. From what I gather Jeffrey Dahmer has his hand stamped to get into the club house. Christianity allows for Joe Stalin (their favorite atheist poster boy) to have come to Christ the night he died........................and it's all good.

Is it any wonder this product has sold so well.

[Clownboat]

Please answer this: What is the desired amount of unwanted babies that the earth should seek to have each year? Is 40 - 50 million unwanted babies enough, or should we strive for more? Would the world be a better place if we had 1 billion unwanted babies per year? Again, try to reason with these questions and leave your emotions out if you can.

Since 1213 is not up to the task, I'm wondering if any Christians were going to weigh in on these questions.
They are very reasonable and are specific to abortion.

[The Tanager]

Why can’t you weigh such things?

Because you don't know the potential (future) possibilities.

We can certainly know the potential future possibilities. Our world is pretty regular, at least in a probabilistic way, enough to get a good idea about what the possibilities are likely to be in a lot of areas of life.

Hypocrites don't typically see hypocrisy. Or don't care if they exhibit it.

I agree.

When one says all life is precious, then takes a life (no matter the reason) it voids the 'all life is precious' argument.
One can try to justify it by saying 'well, taking this life may, potentially, prevent other lives from being taken' is making an excuse for vengeance/revenge. If all life is precious, the murderer (or potential murderer) should be allowed to live their LIFE. Otherwise, one would be saying 'all life is precious except for the life of one who took (or potentially could take) another life'.
Which is fine, but be honest about it and say it this way.

So you’ve claimed. I’m interested in the reasons to agree with your claims. I've responded with factors that I think contradict your conclusion as being the necessary conclusion, like you claim it is.

[The Tanager]

Right to life??

What about all the children who never were given life by Christians for whatever reason. My sister is a Christian, she had one child, she's 50 and healthy her whole life. How many children "If she could have asked them" would have wanted life? But wait there can't be a reason can there? Christians don't want to allow any reasons for someone's unwanted pregnancy. In fact it's worse isn't it. It's completely thought out and premeditated, NO I'm not bringing life into the world. Unlike someone who maybe wanted to have children later but .....ooops.

In the end all this flailing about moral or immoral about abortion or any other issue is moot. Jesus's get out of jail free card allows for you to do anything.........just bend the knee. From what I gather Jeffrey Dahmer has his hand stamped to get into the club house. Christianity allows for Joe Stalin (their favorite atheist poster boy) to have come to Christ the night he died........................and it's all good.

Is it any wonder this product has sold so well.

What do you mean "children who never were given life by Christians"? Children don't exist until the egg and sperm unite. Not allowing egg and sperm to unite is not the same thing as going against the desires or drives of actual beings.

And what do you mean about Christians not allowing reasons for unwanted pregnancies? That they don't realize the competing desires? That they just don't think they are good reasons for not wanting a pregnancy? Something else?

I'm also not clear on what you mean about "wanted to have children later but...ooops". Could you clarify that for me a little better?

[The Tanager]

Please answer this: What is the desired amount of unwanted babies that the earth should seek to have each year? Is 40 - 50 million unwanted babies enough, or should we strive for more? Would the world be a better place if we had 1 billion unwanted babies per year? Again, try to reason with these questions and leave your emotions out if you can.

The desired amount is 0. I would desire the parents to want the babies they conceive. If that doesn't occur, then I would desire other people to want those babies. It's not just either abort or have unwanted babies.

[nobspeople]

[Replying to The Tanager in post #35]

We can certainly know the potential future possibilities.

Basing a LIVE on POSSIBILITIES seems an overreach of your abilities. Or an excuse to take a life - justifying one's need for vengeance.

I’m interested in the reasons to agree with your claims. I've responded with factors that I think contradict your conclusion as being the necessary conclusion, like you claim it is.

And again, you reject anything that doesn't correspond to your thinking. I've given you what you want and you continue to discount it. That's on you, friend.

[Clownboat]

Please answer this: What is the desired amount of unwanted babies that the earth should seek to have each year? Is 40 - 50 million unwanted babies enough, or should we strive for more? Would the world be a better place if we had 1 billion unwanted babies per year? Again, try to reason with these questions and leave your emotions out if you can.

The desired amount is 0.

Then every unwanted fetus would need to be aborted. Otherwise we will have unwanted babies being born.

I would desire the parents to want the babies they conceive.

This was not a question posed and I would hope all of civilization would agree with these words that didn't need to be said.

If that doesn't occur, then I would desire other people to want those babies.

I am not selfish enough to hold such a desire for others. The mother doesn't want it, you don't want it, but you desire someone else to want it. It also fails due to adoption already being a problem. Adding 40 - 50 million unwanted babies to the system would only add to the problem.

Either way, it is unclear where you stand on this issue.
First you state that the desired amount of unwanted babies is zero. Then you go on to desire some unspecified amount of unwanted babies, but only if someone else will be the one to desire them.

It's not just either abort or have unwanted babies.

The claim being made is that by definition, these aborted fetuses are unwanted. You're failing to address the unwant.

[The Tanager]

Then every unwanted fetus would need to be aborted. Otherwise we will have unwanted babies being born.

I’m saying there are no unwanted babies. Yes, some people don’t want them, but others do.

This was not a question posed and I would hope all of civilization would agree with these words that didn't need to be said.

I didn’t imply you asked this directly, or that you would disagree with my sentiment, I simply shared my thoughts on the wider issue. If more people would conceive only when they would want the child that comes from such an act, then the amount of “unwanted babies” that would become the responsibility of non-parents would be lessened, making it easier to care for all “unwanted-by-parent-babies”.

I am not selfish enough to hold such a desire for others. The mother doesn't want it, you don't want it, but you desire someone else to want it. It also fails due to adoption already being a problem. Adding 40 - 50 million unwanted babies to the system would only add to the problem.

I don’t see how it’s selfish to want all babies cared for. I certainly couldn’t care for all unwanted-by-parents-babies myself, so I would hope more people would have concern for them and the ability to care for them personally (helped by support from those who can’t care for them in the parent role).

Either way, it is unclear where you stand on this issue.
First you state that the desired amount of unwanted babies is zero. Then you go on to desire some unspecified amount of unwanted babies, but only if someone else will be the one to desire them.

I think I used the term in different way, but should not have done so to avoid confusion. I want no “unwanted babies”. I realize there will be unwanted-by-parents-babies, but I don’t want them to be unwanted-by-anyone-babies. I think a system could be created to make this happen, but it’s certainly not the systems in place right now. I don’t claim to know how to exactly make it all work with all the factors to deal with in our world, including the various people involved who have different worldviews, values, view of what they want, personal freedom, etc., but I understood you to have asked me what I would like to see.

I don’t exclude myself from those who desire unwanted-by-parents-babies. Up until this year, my wife and I had a nanny business from our house and did not feel we could handle such an addition. We have helped organizations that do help mothers who choose to not abort, fostering organizations, adoption organizations, those that come alongside families. Our current church has close ties with these types of organizations. We aren’t leaders in this at all, but there are so many ways the world is broken and one person can’t do it all. My family and I try to be generous with our time, talents, and resources in different ways, but I’m sure we could grow in that as well.

The claim being made is that by definition, these aborted fetuses are unwanted. You're failing to address the unwant.

Perhaps my stance has been clarified a little better. Thanks for making some comments that helped me to do so. Please ask further questions if you feel I’m still unclear at points.