If you don't follow a/the Church...

[Willum]

If you claim to believe in the Christian god, but do not follow or believe in the practices of any church, and have your own unique perspective of this God, how can you distinguish this from a god you have simply made up?

In other words, how can you know your beliefs about God are better than a churches?
In other words, how do you know, of all the perspectives and interpretations of God, your's are correct? Or that God is what you have imagined?
And if not, how do you justify inventing or imagining a God in defiance of the certainly greater wisdom of a congregation?

If you are wrong, is it not CERTAINLY blasphemy to invent details of God you have no basis for believing are true?

[Eloi]

Jesus told those living in his time that they should listen to him to learn about the Father. This was said to the Jews especially, because they did not accept him as the Messiah.

To the people of the future Jesus would not speak directly. Jesus did not even mention that gospels and letters would be written about him and his teachings. It is a fact that the things that Jesus taught took on a very different dimension when they were no longer just isolated disciples who followed him from one place to another and learned from his sayings, but an international community that would have to be united as a group and apply the teachings some learned directly from him in this new system.

What did Jesus say would happen in the future? He said these things:

Matt. 11:40 “Whoever receives you receives me also, and whoever receives me receives also the One who sent me. 41 Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.”
... 25:40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Anyone can pretend to listen and follow Jesus, reinterpreting his words at will. To listen Jesus at this time, we have to find his brothers... Anyone can pretend to listen and follow Jesus, reinterpreting his words as he pleases ... even when he is mistreating Jesus' brothers (Matt. 7:21-23).

If someone claims that he follows Jesus individually only indicates, at best, how convinced he is that he is doing it, but it does not indicate that he actually does. Anyone can say it the same way; in fact, many say so, and they are as contradictory to each other as religions are; the only difference is that they follow their own personal religions, which, obviously, is more false than following any comunal religion. God does not call that kind of prophets at this time. Today God has a people, not an individual preaching his personal interpretations of what is written.

2 Pet. 1:19 Consequently we have the prophetic word [made] more sure; and YOU are doing well in paying attention to it as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and a daystar rises, in YOUR hearts. 20 For YOU know this first, that no prophecy of Scripture springs from any private interpretation. 21 For prophecy was at no time brought by man’s will, but men spoke from God as they were borne along by holy spirit.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Jesus told those living in his time that they should listen to him to learn about the Father. This was said to the Jews especially, because they did not accept him as the Messiah.

Are you saying that you are bringing a different message than that? (and not just the Jews, but all of Israel, which also included the Samaritans who were descended from the other ten tribes).

To the people of the future Jesus would not speak directly.

Where does Christ say this?

Where do the apostles say this?

Where does anyone say this?

Christ said that He had other sheep not of that sheep pen, that they TOO would listen to HIS voice.

I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.

That is what Christ said.

Why should anyone listen to something MEN claim instead of Christ's own words?

The bible - which you claim to listen to - also shows that Christ continued to speak and to teach His sheep even AFTER His death, resurrection and ascension.

So who is anyone else to contradict Him? To claim that Christ would not speak to people directly?

That is a teaching of men, a 'tradition' of men, and it is in direct conflict with Christ.

What did Jesus say would happen in the future? He said these things:

He said those things as well as the above, that His sheep would listen to His voice. ALL His sheep. He did not limit that as men limit it (because of course those very same men do not hear His voice, and so do their best to convince everyone else that Christ does not speak to anyone).

Matt. 11:40 “Whoever receives you receives me also, and whoever receives me receives also the One who sent me. 41 Whoever receives a prophet because he is a prophet will get a prophet’s reward, and whoever receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will get a righteous man’s reward. 42 And whoever gives one of these little ones only a cup of cold water to drink because he is a disciple, I tell you truly, he will by no means lose his reward.”
... 25:40 In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

Catholics (mis)use these words to claim that a person has to listen to the RCC. Your religion apparently mimics them and claim that these words mean a person has to listen to the WTS/JW religion.

Instead, the witnesses of Christ are meant to be pointing TO CHRIST. To come to Him. To listen to Him. To obey His commands. That is why I bear witness to Christ, and put up His words for others to see. I am not bearing witness to a religion, or serving a religion. I am a witness to Christ. I belong to Christ. I serve Christ. He is the One I point toward, He is the One I follow and listen TO.

To listen Jesus in this time, we have to find his brothers...

This is taught not by Christ... but by men who erroneously claim that YOU cannot be His brother, that you cannot be anointed, that you cannot be the Church/Bride, that you cannot obey His command to eat and drink of Him (of the bread and wine that mean His flesh and blood). These are men who do not enter the Kingdom of heaven, nor do they let anyone else enter who is listening to them (instead of to Christ).

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."


Christ did not teach that some Christians would be His brothers but most would not, that some Christians should eat and drink of Him, but most should not; that some of His sheep would listen to His voice, but most would not; that some Christians are part of His Bride, His Church, His Body, but most are not. The apostles did not teach that. The bible does not teach that.

Anyone can pretend to listen and follow Jesus, reinterpreting his words as they please... even when he is mistreating Jesus' brothers (Matt. 7:21-23).

Anyone can pretend, that is correct. That is why we are to test the inspired expressions. To hold all things up against the Light (the Light who is Christ). If something contradicts Christ (the Truth, the Light), then it is false. If a religion contradicts Christ, it cannot be speaking truth. Christ is the test of truth.

Christ never once taught that people in the future would only be able to listen to His voice by listening to His brothers. That is a teaching and interpretation of men/religion. Men who do not hear His voice, so how in the world could they possibly claim that this is a teaching from Him. By their own admittance, they could not have heard this from Christ, so why in the world would you believe them?

If someone claims that he follows Jesus individually only indicates, at best, how convinced he is that he is doing it, but it does not indicate that he actually does. Anyone can say it the same way; in fact, many say so, and they are as contradictory to each other as religions are; the only difference is that they follow their own personal religions, which, obviously, is more false than following any religion.

How can it be 'more false'? Is that an admittance that religion is indeed false? Like saying the RCC is more false than the WTS? That would still make both of them false!

God does not call that kind of prophets at this time.

Really, because there is a quote that in the last days (which you claim these are), God will pour out His spirit; that people will prophecy, dream dreams, see visions, etc.

Today God has a people, not an individual preaching his personal interpretations of what is written.

I never made a claim of personal interpretation, though your religion ABSOLUTELY makes that claim!!! They HAVE to make that claim, because at the same time, they make the claim that Christ DOES NOT SPEAK to anyone.


As for me, Christ is the Truth and Image and Word of God. I am just looking at Him to see God.

If you know Christ, you know His Father as well.

That is how one can know His Father. At least according to Christ. If a person is truly HIS disciple, then His words are the ones that should matter, are they not? Especially when God said to listen to His Son?





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Eloi]

I'm not interested in convincing you of anything. If you talk to your christ or have a special personal interpretation of his teachings, you should already be satisfied with yourself.

Have a nice day.

[Willum]

[Replying to tam in post #32]

Since you ignored the first question that would allow some idea of your own objectivity, I'll ask another.
What, if anything, could persuade you you had an incorrect perspective of your God?

A misinterpretation of scripture?
A flat contradiction of your objective belief and the Bible?

What would you say?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to tam in post #32]

Since you ignored the first question that would allow some idea of your own objectivity, I'll ask another.

You mean this question?

What do you believe the appropriate punishment is for violating the Commandment of Adultery?

It doesn't matter what I think (though I assume you mean the commandment against adultery), and I don't think in terms of 'punishment' but rather in terms of mercy and forgiveness.

But I think I mentioned this in an earlier post when I mentioned Christ and the woman caught in adultery. So you already have the answer to the question. I would follow the example that Christ left (be merciful, forgive, 'let the one without sin cast the first stone'). I am not one without sin (and even if I were, Christ did not stone that woman, but rather, he forgave her and saved her life).

What, if anything, could persuade you you had an incorrect perspective of your God?

Show where Christ contradicts something I have shared. I would then have to correct something I have been mistaken about, bring it in line with Christ (and love).


Peace again to you.

[tam]

Peace to you, and just to add (not sure if it is of interest to anyone), but we are permitted to divorce an adulterous spouse (and remarry without committing adultery ourselves). That is what Christ taught (matt 19:9), and that is also what God did when Israel was adulterous:

I gave faithless Israel her certificate of divorce and sent her away because of all her adulteries. Yet I saw that her unfaithful sister Judah had no fear; she also went out and committed adultery. Jeremiah 3:8


You don't have to divorce over it (if you forgive it then it is forgiven), but you can.

Peace again.

[Willum]

[Replying to tam in post #35]

Your evasion of both questions had convinced me definitively of your faith.
Good talk.

[tam]

[Replying to tam in post #35]

Your evasion of both questions had convinced me definitively of your faith.
Good talk.

What are you talking about? I answered both of your questions.

Peace again.

[Willum]

[Replying to tam in post #38]

Certainly answering the question "How far away is the Moon?"
With and answer of "Yellow," is certainly an answer.

Your answers provide great insight.

[tam]

[Replying to tam in post #38]

Certainly answering the question "How far away is the Moon?"
With and answer of "Yellow," is certainly an answer.

Your answers provide great insight.

Or maybe you're looking for a specific answer to refute, and I did not provide that, so you accuse me of not answering the question. The first question was asked in a wonky way that does not apply to my faith, but the second question I answered directly. What more can I do than that?


Peace again.