The capability to sin

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Willum
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The capability to sin

Post #1

Post by Willum »

Are there any other applications of freewill other then to sin?
Without freewill, we would be living God’s will.

Making freewill a very dubious gift indeed.

So, in God granting freewill, was there any other opportunity or benefit to it, other then the capability and eventuality of sin?

If you could choose to live in God’s will, without freewill, would you?

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #31

Post by William »

Willum wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:55 am [Replying to nobspeople in post #5]
One could say that freely worshipping god would be (more) pleasurable to god than if one was 'programmed' to do so. I'd ask why a perfect being needs or even wants to be worshipped; shouldn't it be content with itself enough? I think so.
But since we're speaking about God, doesn't that just increase the scope of the "programming?"
From one of default pleasure, to abbreviate what you said, to one where freewill/sin are included?

Thank you for the excellent insight.
What type of worship is required from a Child to a Parent?

Does it require mainly listening or talking?

Does a perfect being even create Children?

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #32

Post by Willum »

[Replying to William in post #31]

I am sorry, that you ask such questions means you should abandon whatever beliefs you do hold and adopt those you are debating with.

As clearly they are capable of answering them in your own absence.

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #33

Post by bjs1 »

Willum wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:22 am [Replying to bjs1 in post #21]

Brilliant.
Except even the purest will do evil. Therefore, no matter how much good you do, you still sin, making freewill a horror, not blessing.
The purest may well do evil, but with free will they can also do what is good. With free will there is the potential to come out morally ahead overall (that is, doing more good than evil). Without free people would always be morally neutral. We could not be bad, but we could not be good either.

If free will is a horror or a blessing depends on our goal. If our primary goal is happiness then free will is a horror. If our goal is goodness then free will is essential.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #34

Post by William »

William wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 3:01 pm
Willum wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 8:55 am [Replying to nobspeople in post #5]
One could say that freely worshipping god would be (more) pleasurable to god than if one was 'programmed' to do so. I'd ask why a perfect being needs or even wants to be worshipped; shouldn't it be content with itself enough? I think so.
But since we're speaking about God, doesn't that just increase the scope of the "programming?"
From one of default pleasure, to abbreviate what you said, to one where freewill/sin are included?

Thank you for the excellent insight.
What type of worship is required from a Child to a Parent?

Does it require mainly listening or talking?

Does a perfect being even create Children?
Having the belief in the existence of Free Will allows for the individual to answer those questions presented under the assumption of the belief.

If the Creator Being is questioned as to why we even have the belief in the existence of Free Will because 'sin' - then it might be that the belief itself is what creates the idea of sin.

But "what is sin?" Has that been answered any more comprehensively than the question, "what is free will?"

Perhaps having the belief in the existence of Free Will allowed us the ability to make laws, which in turn allowed for us the ability to see sin and capacity is borne on that ability.

One can choose to see nothing more than a dubious gift, if one so desires...what drives the desire remains as hidden as the evidence of Free Will and Sin - largely left to the devices of the individual to sort out the answers to.

The OP does not in itself show answers sorted out.

The capacity to sin is not simply the product of free will, but of awareness of a self moderating morality over having to be moderated by others, to the point of correction.

Free will - real or imagined [as the case might be] is not simply a device in which to make capable only 'sin'.

The OP implies otherwise, but does not show supporting evidence to that being the case.

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #35

Post by Tcg »

bjs1 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:34 pm
Willum wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:22 am [Replying to bjs1 in post #21]

Brilliant.
Except even the purest will do evil. Therefore, no matter how much good you do, you still sin, making freewill a horror, not blessing.
The purest may well do evil, but with free will they can also do what is good. With free will there is the potential to come out morally ahead overall (that is, doing more good than evil). Without free people would always be morally neutral. We could not be bad, but we could not be good either.

If free will is a horror or a blessing depends on our goal. If our primary goal is happiness then free will is a horror. If our goal is goodness then free will is essential.
Even if this were true, it wouldn't be evidence for freewill. At best it is simply a discussion of what the pros and cons of freewill or lack thereof are. Our goals, whatever they may be, won't change the reality of freewill, whatever it may be.


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I must assume that knowing is better than not knowing, venturing than not venturing; and that magic and illusion, however rich, however alluring, ultimately weaken the human spirit.

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #36

Post by Eloi »

Willum wrote: Tue Apr 26, 2022 6:55 am Are there any other applications of freewill other then to sin?
Without freewill, we would be living God’s will.

Making freewill a very dubious gift indeed.

So, in God granting freewill, was there any other opportunity or benefit to it, other then the capability and eventuality of sin?

If you could choose to live in God’s will, without freewill, would you?
Every day every person has to make thousands of decisions, to do one thing from a number of alternatives. It is one of the results of being created in the image of God, the right to choose.

Is that power of decision limited? Of course it has limits; We were created in the image of God but we are not Him ... However, we have a wide margin to choose and control our actions, so that they are not only instinctive, but intelligent. That control differentiates us from the animals. Would you have preferred to be born at the mercy of what someone else always decides for you, like a pet, a computer program, a robot?

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #37

Post by Tcg »

Eloi wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:34 pm That control differentiates us from the animals.
That claim is a bit problematic given that we are animals.


Tcg
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- American Atheists


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Re: The capability to sin

Post #38

Post by Eloi »

Tcg wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:45 pm(...) we are animals.


Tcg
Are you? Hehehe.
I don't think so.
I guess you need a new topic to discuss how much an animal YOU are.

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #39

Post by bjs1 »

Tcg wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 5:17 pm
bjs1 wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 4:34 pm
Willum wrote: Wed Apr 27, 2022 10:22 am [Replying to bjs1 in post #21]

Brilliant.
Except even the purest will do evil. Therefore, no matter how much good you do, you still sin, making freewill a horror, not blessing.
The purest may well do evil, but with free will they can also do what is good. With free will there is the potential to come out morally ahead overall (that is, doing more good than evil). Without free people would always be morally neutral. We could not be bad, but we could not be good either.

If free will is a horror or a blessing depends on our goal. If our primary goal is happiness then free will is a horror. If our goal is goodness then free will is essential.
Even if this were true, it wouldn't be evidence for freewill. At best it is simply a discussion of what the pros and cons of freewill or lack thereof are. Our goals, whatever they may be, won't change the reality of freewill, whatever it may be.
I did not attempt to provide evidence for freewill. Christianity would face far few objections if free will did not exist. I cannot currently think of any objection to Christianity that would stand if we accept that there is no such thing as free will. However, since free will seems to be an accurate description of the human condition, Christianity will likely never abandon it.
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge.
-Charles Darwin

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Re: The capability to sin

Post #40

Post by Willum »

[Replying to William in post #22]

Or it violates site rules to comment on them succinctly.

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