A Christian's Rationale For Owning Slaves...

[POI]

Taken from "1213" --> http://www.kolumbus.fi/r.berg/Owning_slaves.html

Notably, the quote below:

Owning slaves?

According to the Old Testament, peoples at least had right to own slaves. Many wonder, is that same right also valid for today’s disciples of Jesus.

1) Jesus didn’t directly deny owning slaves. So maybe it can be taught that it is valid right today also. However Jesus taught to do same to others that you want others to do to you. Therefore, if you don’t want yourself to be slave, don’t keep others in that position.

2) Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat. 7:12

3) It is also good to notice that disciples of Jesus shouldn’t consider themselves superior to others. If we are all brothers and sisters, how could we keep other as a slave? Rather we should be servants to each other.

*************************

My response, thus far:

1) You are right, Jesus never tells humans that slavery is wrong. Instead, He looks to endorse the following two Bible passages A) and B):

A) Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord. 23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters, 24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving. (Col. 3:22-24)

B) All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered. 2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare[a] of their slaves. (1 Tim. 6:1-2)

A) This massage tells the slave to remain subservient, work as hard as one can; even when the master is away. This way, God will be proud of you, via the slave.

B) Respect your slave master. If the master happens to be a Christian, respect them even more.

As you can see, Jesus appears not to be against slavery at all. In fact, He condones such practices.

2) If this were the case for all humans, (the free and the enslaved), then Jesus would not have endorsed instructions for slavery.

3) Please remember the 'golden rule' was already expressed in the OT (i.e.) "you shall love your neighbor as yourself"(Lev. 19:18). Either never speak about the topic of slavery at all, or, tell the Bible readers that slavery is 'wrong'. Instead, the OT already instructs on how you may obtain slaves, how you may beat your slaves, and informs the reader that the slave master can own the slave for life, and also treat them as their property for life. The NT then merely reinforces such OT instruction.

Question(s) for debate:

Why didn't Jesus just abolish slavery practices, or never mention slavery at all? Seems rather confusing, to have left what He left in the NT Bible....?

Answer (post #401)

I'd say that the matter is clear. The OT does refer to chattel slavery - for foreigners. The Bible gives rules (attempting to be fair, no denial) for Jews enslaving others. It does not look like God, knowing that slavery is going to be a no- no in the age when his religion is user scrutiny, thought that he should make it clear that it was wrong. It looks like God thought it was ok, within limits. Paul gave it a thumbs -up and Jesus at least by not commenting, seems to be unaware that it is going to be one of the worst human crimes in modern times.

Thus, it is one more reason to believe the Bible, cover to cover...as the word of men of the time. And that's all it is. It is not even a valid guide to life- advice, morals or social conduct. It is, like any other book, judged by human moral standards, and I can prove it. If Christians did not judge the Bible by human moral codes, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[JehovahsWitness]

LEVITICUS 19:18 b - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

.... love your fellow man as yourself. I AM LORD JEHOVAH.

DID THE LEVITICAL LAW TO LOVE ONES NEIGHBOUR EXCLUDE FOREIGN SLAVES ?


Although the Mosaic law contained many different RULES /LAWS for different circumstances or citizens (not everyone had the same rights) certain constitution rights were considered universal and applied to all citizens.

The Ten commandements, for example contained principles that applied indescriminaently to all citizens regardless of their status and this governed the limits of any and all subsequent rules (rather like the constitution of the United States protect all Americans and are considered universal inalienable rights).

There were no exceptions for these basic principles as demonstrated (proven) by the implimentation of rules protecting bodily integrity and the sanctity of life. If the life of a slave was not sacred there would be no death penalty for his murder. If his body had no right to be protected, there could be no compensation for its injury. BY coming under the protection of the Hebrew legal system the slave automatically came under the law on love upon which it was based (compare Matthew 22:40)

NOTE : By the time Jesus would walk the earth thousands of years later, Pharisees atempted to argue that non-Israelites could not be considered ones neighbour. Jesus however squashed this notion by illustrating that ones neighbour is anyone they came in contact with.

CONCLUSION: That foreign slaves were indeed protected by the law of love is demonstrated (proven) by the existence of rules which which protected the bodily integity, and sabbatical worker rights for both slave and freeman. There is thus no valid basis to claim slave were NOT protected by the forementioned law

LAW OF LOVE

Does the bible indicate how God would have felt about slaveowners beatings their slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1078599#p1078599

Did the principle of loving one's neighbour EXCLUDE foreign slaves?
viewtopic.php?p=1079896#p1079896

Was there really "one law" (one standard of law) for all people that lived in ancient Israel?
viewtopic.php?p=1079612#p1079612

How can there be one LAW if different rules apply to different people?
viewtopic.php?p=1079662#p1079662

Could the "Law of Love" found at Leviticus 19:18b, co-exist in a system that allows for lifelong slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1079905#p1079905

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LOVE & SLAVERY, CHATTEL SLAVERY and .... ABOLITION

[brunumb]

IF A SLAVE RECOVERED FROM A SEVERE BEATING, COULD HIS ABUSER STILL BE CHARGED WITH A CRIMINAL OFFENSE?

Answer: Yes he could. There was a specific mandate in the Laws Code which stipulated the following . ..

LEVITICUS 19:18 b - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

.... love your fellow man as yourself. I AM LORD JEHOVAH.

Under the above directive criminal or civil charges could be made although the death penalty could not be imposed.

Under the above directive his abuser could be given a free lunch, or a trip to the Bahamas, or.....just about anything. How on earth does that indicate that criminal or civil charges should/would be laid? This debate is just a load of word play designed to get Jehovah off the hook.

[JehovahsWitness]

IF A SLAVE RECOVERED FROM A SEVERE BEATING, COULD HIS ABUSER STILL BE CHARGED WITH A CRIMINAL OFFENSE?

Answer: Yes he could. There was a specific mandate in the Laws Code which stipulated the following . ..

LEVITICUS 19:18 b - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

.... love your fellow man as yourself. I AM LORD JEHOVAH.

Under the above directive criminal or civil charges could be made although the death penalty could not be imposed.

Under the above directive his abuser could be given a free lunch, or a trip to the Bahamas, or.....just about anything. ...

As long as it was a LAW on the statue books then someone could be charged with breaking it; that's how laws work. What punishment is issued, or whether the alleged offended is punished at all, would be up to the discretion of the judge(s).

There is no legal basis for authorities rewarding slavebeaters. The most that could be expected was an acquittal





RELATED POSTS



Could the "Law of Love" found at Leviticus 19:18b, co-exist in a system that allows for lifelong slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1079905#p1079905

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHATTEL SLAVERY and .... SLAVE BEATING

[TRANSPONDER]

GOD ORDERS NO CHARGES BE MADE means God issued an order that, the slavebeaters are immune from any and all charges, provided the slave recovers. .

Exodus 21:20-21 ESV
“When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money".

There's your order. ....

Where does it say no further charges can be made?

Your pettifogging strawman is irrelevant.

There is no "pettifogging strawman" on my part: You produce a scripture that you claim issues immunity from all further charges and it makes no mention of further charges. My follow up question, which highlighted the fact that the scriptural evidence you produced does not say what you claim, is entirely appropriate.




JW

That is a pettifogging strawman and a textbook example of one. I made no such claim. That is not my argument or point as I explained. You produce a point that I didn't make, and a pettifogging one, as well, and which is irrelevant because the point is about ownership of people not the rules for dealing with them. Your attempt to force on me an unrelated claim that I did not actually make and is unrelated to my point in hope that you can score a cheap and irrelevant point and(I would guess) claim that wins you the whole argument, will not make you, your case, or your religion look very good.

[JehovahsWitness]

CHATTEL SLAVERY



IS CHATTLE SLAVERY AS PRACTISED IN 17TH CENTURY AMERICA THE SAME AS THE LIFETIME SLAVERY UNDER THE HEBREWS SYSTEM ?




source: https://aaregistry.org/story/chattel-sl ... efinition/

One reason I insist on speaking of the enslavement of Africans as chattel slavery rather than slavery is because in the English language it is possible to confuse a certain idea of servitude with slavery. An African who was enslaved had no personal or private rights and was expressly the property of another person to be held, used, or abused as the owner saw fit. Imagine the hell of this predicament and you are on the edge of the nightmare of chattel slavery. - Slavery Remembrance Day memorial lecture 2007, Dr Molefi Kete Asante

Your link above was an article specifically related to American chattel -slavery so of course it related to the enslavement of Africans.

...The rules on slavery plainly show that for Non Hebrews, it was lifetime ownership of a person - chattel slavery, just as much as it was for Africans transported to the Americas.

While the Hebrew system did legislate lifetime ownership of foreign slaves, it differed from the American slave system on a number of levels and is thus not comparable.




JW





RELATED POSTS

What was CHATTEL slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1079718#p1079718

Was chattel slavery as practiced under the American slave trade system, the same as the lifelong slavery legilsated in ancient Israel?
viewtopic.php?p=1079902#p1079902

Were foreign slaves considered chattel under the Hebrew system?
viewtopic.php?p=1079301#p1079301

What did being a man's "property" mean to the ancient Hebrews?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p814401

Is the slavery that existed under bible law comparable to the European & American slave trade?[regulations]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 79#p811779

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHATTEL SLAVERY and .... SLAVE BEATING

[TRANSPONDER]

LEVITICUS 19:18 b - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

.... love your fellow man as yourself. I AM LORD JEHOVAH.

DID THE LEVITICAL LAW TO LOVE ONES NEIGHBOUR EXCLUDE FOREIGN SLAVES ?


Although the Mosaic law contained many different RULES /LAWS for different circumstances or citizens (not everyone had the same rights) certain constitution rights were considered universal and applied to all citizens.

The Ten commandements, for example contained principles that applied indescriminaently to all citizens regardless of their status and this governed the limits of any and all subsequent rules (rather like the constitution of the United States protect all Americans and are considered universal inalienable rights).

There were no exceptions for these basic principles as demonstrated (proven) by the implimentation of rules protecting bodily integrity and the sanctity of life. If the life of a slave was not sacred there would be no death penalty for his murder. If his body had no right to be protected, there could be no compensation for its injury. BY coming under the protection of the Hebrew legal system the slave automatically came under the law on love upon which it was based (compare Matthew 22:40)

NOTE : By the time Jesus would walk the earth thousands of years later, Pharisees atempted to argue that non-Israelites could not be considered ones neighbour. Jesus however squashed this notion by illustrating that ones neighbour is anyone they came in contact with.

CONCLUSION: That foreign slaves were indeed protected by the law of love is demonstrated (proven) by the existence of rules which which protected the bodily integity, and sabbatical worker rights for both slave and freeman. There is thus no valid basis to claim slave were NOT protected by the forementioned law

RELATED POSTS

Was there really "one law" (one standard of law) for all people that lived in ancient Israel?
viewtopic.php?p=1079612#p1079612

How can there be one LAW if different rules apply to different people?
viewtopic.php?p=1079662#p1079662

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, SLAVE BEATING and ...THE MOSAIC LAW

Didn't we just do this? 'Play nice' does not cause vanishment of a list of rules about the chattel ownership for life of foreign persons as slave, and for how to deal with them, no matter how much you may want to wish them away.

[JehovahsWitness]

I made no such claim.

Then your post was irrelevant.

I asked that an order from God that no criminal or civil charges could be levied against a slavebeater [acquitted of causing criminal damage], you responded to that request with a passage saying {quote} "there's your order". It was not what I asked for and is thus irrelevant. If however you wish to propose the passage meets my request, feel free to explain how.

[JehovahsWitness]

LEVITICUS 19:18 b - Aramaic Bible in Plain English

.... love your fellow man as yourself. I AM LORD JEHOVAH.

'Play nice' ...

Obviously "play nice" is an instruction about how to deal (act) with others. The Hebrews went beyond mere instruction to love their neighbours , it was enshrined into their law and thus infringement became a PUNISHABLE offense.

'Play nice' does not cause vanishment of a list of rules about the ... ownership for life of foreign persons as slave ...

No and it doesn't have to, the two can quite comfortably co-exist because the rules under the Hebrew system did not allow for abuse of power and protected the slave from loss of his rights.



JW




RELATED POSTS

What was CHATTEL slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1079718#p1079718

Was chattel slavery as practiced under the American slave trade system, the same as the lifelong slavery legilsated in ancient Israel?
viewtopic.php?p=1079902#p1079902

Were foreign slaves considered chattel under the Hebrew system?
viewtopic.php?p=1079301#p1079301

What did being a man's "property" mean to the ancient Hebrews?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p814401

Is the slavery that existed under bible law comparable to the European & American slave trade?[regulations]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 79#p811779

Could the "Law of Love" found at Leviticus 19:18b, co-exist in a system that allows for lifelong slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1079905#p1079905

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHATTEL SLAVERY and .... SLAVE BEATING

[JehovahsWitness]

... the OT accommodates chattel slavery of non Hebrews

Yes it does. That is, if by "chattel" slavery you mean lifetime slavery under the HEBREWS SYSTEM as enshrined in their scripture.

... OT morality falls short of what we today considered ethical.

We? "We" who?! There are many that I know that see OT morality as entirely ethical, even divine; myself included.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS



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Could the "Law of Love" found at Leviticus 19:18b, co-exist in a system that allows for lifelong slavery?
viewtopic.php?p=1079905#p1079905

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

SLAVERY, CHATTEL SLAVERY and .... SLAVE BEATING

[POI]

If I misunderstood how your post is relevant to what I have posted feel free to clarify

Your post states the following:

"If your point is that chattel slavery is not universally understood and practiced the same way and can vary in meaning from one era and nationality to another, I'll take it.

In the light of the above, the present discussion is about the enslavement as practiced by ancient Hebrews the terms of which are defined clearly in their scripture and do not necessarily reflect present day usage."

***************

Your argument above is that "ancient Hebrew slavery" was the "good" kind

Then read here....

To instead believe God had a hand in any of this topic, looks to require mental gymnastics, hoop jumping, rationalization, 'apologetics', and the like. Additional assumptions are required.

No mention of God was made in my post

Is your argument that God did not give instruction about any type of slavery at all in the Bible? Meaning, it was all made-made laws too? (yes or no)

If yes, then my follow-up question would then be... How do you go about deciding which rules/laws/commands/other are, and are not, from YHWH?

If no, then your above quoted statement is irrelevant.