Do you understand those on the other side?

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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Jose Fly
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Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #1

Post by Jose Fly »

As I've pointed out many times (probably too many times), I grew up in a fundamentalist Christian environment. I was taught young-earth creationism from an early age, was told prayer and reading the Bible were the answer to most of life's problems and questions, and witnessed all sorts of "interesting" things such as speaking in tongues, faith healing, end times predictions, etc.

Yet despite being completely immersed in this culture, I can't recall a time in my life when I ever believed any of it. However, unlike some of my peers at the time I didn't really find it boring. In fact, I found a lot of it to be rather fascinating because.....very little of it made any sense to me. I just could not understand the people, their beliefs, their way of thinking, or much of anything that I saw and heard. When I saw them anointing with oil someone who had the flu and later saw the virus spread (of course), I could not understand what they were thinking. When I saw them make all sorts of failed predictions about the Soviet Union and the end times, yet never even acknowledge their errors while continuing to make more predictions, I was baffled. Speaking in tongues was of particular interest to me because it really made no sense to me.

In the years that I've been debating creationists it's the same thing. When I see them say "no transitional fossils" or "no new genetic information" only to ignore examples of those things when they're presented, I can't relate to that way of thinking at all. When I see them demand evidence for things only to ignore it after it's provided, I can't relate. When I see them quote mine a scientific paper and after someone points it out they completely ignore it, I can't relate.

Now to be clear, I think I "understand" some of what's behind these behaviors (i.e., the psychological factors), but what I don't understand is how the people engaging in them seem to be completely oblivious to it all. What goes on in their mind when they demand "show me the evidence", ignore everything that's provided in response, and then come back later and make the same demand all over again? Are they so blinded by the need to maintain their beliefs that they literally block out all memories of it? Again....I just don't get it.

So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"

Or is it just me? :P
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #151

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:48 pm We know that if we stand on the moon, and look at the planet, there is no immediate evidence of the planet being an intelligent entity, producing myriad forms of intelligent life.
Probably because the planet is not intelligent entity.
William wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 2:48 pm It is when we get closer to it - and find life and examine life and see the intelligence therein, that we can return to the moon and observe an intelligent planet. Not because it looks any different from the way it did when we first observed it from the moon - but rather - because we accumulated a lot of information about it through closer examination, and the effect of that data in that interim, changed our original perceptions of the Earth.
But those changes to our original perceptions of the Earth do not lead to the conclusion that it is an intelligent entity. Sure, there are intelligent species everywhere but no compelling reason to conclude that intelligence extends beyond those species. Unless, of course, one is predisposed to leaping to unwarranted conclusions or applying some sort of confirmation bias.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #152

Post by Inquirer »

brunumb wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:46 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:24 pm A system whose many parts are all deterministic (strictly obey the laws of nature all the time) cannot be non-deterministic, it could be unpredictable due to the sheer complexity of calculating its state but unpredictable is not the same as non-determinism and without non-determinism there can be no free will - yet I have free will.
You've made that claim a few times. How have you demonstrated the validity of that claim?
It is a self evident truth.

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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #153

Post by William »

We know that if we stand on the moon, and look at the planet, there is no immediate evidence of the planet being an intelligent entity, producing myriad forms of intelligent life.
[Replying to brunumb in post #151]
Probably because the planet is not intelligent entity.
Positive statements imply a claim is being made. Do you have any evidence to support the claim that the planet is not an intelligent entity?
It is when we get closer to it - and find life and examine life and see the intelligence therein, that we can return to the moon and observe an intelligent planet. Not because it looks any different from the way it did when we first observed it from the moon - but rather - because we accumulated a lot of information about it through closer examination, and the effect of that data in that interim, changed our original perceptions of the Earth.
But those changes to our original perceptions of the Earth do not lead to the conclusion that it is an intelligent entity.
No they do not, and I don't understand where it is you think I am saying this is the case.
What it leads to is that the possibility that one equals the other, allows for the possibility that it is, and therefore, information regarding the possibility remains relevant to the position of Agnosticism.
That door remains open to further investigation.
That idea remains on the table.
Sure, there are intelligent species everywhere but no compelling reason to conclude that intelligence extends beyond those species. Unless, of course, one is predisposed to leaping to unwarranted conclusions or applying some sort of confirmation bias.
The sort of confirmation bias which Agnosticism avoids are those which develop within the positions of Theism and Atheism.

The "unwarranted conclusion" in this case, would be to view the obvious intelligence being displayed, as "not really a display of intelligence." but "something else" such as "The planet isn't really an intelligent entity, but is simply unconsciously responding to the stimulus of its environment."

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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #154

Post by brunumb »

Inquirer wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:43 pm
brunumb wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:46 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:24 pm A system whose many parts are all deterministic (strictly obey the laws of nature all the time) cannot be non-deterministic, it could be unpredictable due to the sheer complexity of calculating its state but unpredictable is not the same as non-determinism and without non-determinism there can be no free will - yet I have free will.
You've made that claim a few times. How have you demonstrated the validity of that claim?
It is a self evident truth.
Absolutely not. You have no way of being able to determine if you have free will or not. How can you tell that there isn't some influence beyond yourself that is involved in at least some of your decisions?
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #155

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 2:06 pm The "unwarranted conclusion" in this case, would be to view the obvious intelligence being displayed, as "not really a display of intelligence." but "something else" such as "The planet isn't really an intelligent entity, but is simply unconsciously responding to the stimulus of its environment."
One can imagine any number of so-called possibilities, but that doesn't endow them with any degree of probability just because someone allegedly has an agnostic mindset. Where else does obvious woo come from?
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #156

Post by William »

[Replying to brunumb in post #155]
One can imagine any number of so-called possibilities, but that doesn't endow them with any degree of probability just because someone allegedly has an agnostic mindset.
Nor do possibilities and probabilities [re explanations for intelligence] only have relevance or become reasonable when viewed through an atheist or theist mindset. Obviously

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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #157

Post by brunumb »

William wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:34 pm [Replying to brunumb in post #155]
One can imagine any number of so-called possibilities, but that doesn't endow them with any degree of probability just because someone allegedly has an agnostic mindset.
Nor do possibilities and probabilities [re explanations for intelligence] only have relevance or become reasonable when viewed through an atheist or theist mindset. Obviously
Atheist and theist mindsets are irrelevant. You seem to be trying to use agnosticism to give credibility to fanciful imaginings by discrediting the thoughts of atheists and theists. It is not working.
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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #158

Post by Inquirer »

brunumb wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:18 pm
Inquirer wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 1:43 pm
brunumb wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 7:46 pm
Inquirer wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 3:24 pm A system whose many parts are all deterministic (strictly obey the laws of nature all the time) cannot be non-deterministic, it could be unpredictable due to the sheer complexity of calculating its state but unpredictable is not the same as non-determinism and without non-determinism there can be no free will - yet I have free will.
You've made that claim a few times. How have you demonstrated the validity of that claim?
It is a self evident truth.
Absolutely not. You have no way of being able to determine if you have free will or not. How can you tell that there isn't some influence beyond yourself that is involved in at least some of your decisions?
I covered this already, it is self evident to me, as self evident as "Do I exist?" has the answer "Yes, definitely".

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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #159

Post by William »

[Replying to brunumb in post #157]
Atheist and theist mindsets are irrelevant.
If this were truth, forums such as this would not exist.

Atheist and theist mindsets are as relevant as they are, real - and really operating in an Experiential Reality, affecting, effecting said ER - even going so far as to blame each other for the state of the world.
You seem to be...
Image

Square (A) also seems to be a different shade than square (B). The brain takes in (seemingly) external data and processes it before running it through consciousness.
Things are not always as they might appear.
...trying to use agnosticism...
Right now I am questioning the validity of the use of the word Agnosticism and want to do more research on the subject.
What I have been wondering, is where this information on the structure of play is sourced [re the question "Do we exist in a creation"]

Who, or what committee/conference decided and agreed upon terminology and position re The Question?
...to give credibility to fanciful imaginings by discrediting the thoughts of atheists and theists.
I seek to discredit or credit thoughts that I have about things that I experience whilst remaining in the neutral/natural starting position of ignorance finding itself within a data stream and not wanting to be unwise by reacting too soon and establishing beliefs or non-beliefs re that knowledge.

In that, I choose not to give credibility to fanciful images presented to me by those in the positions of Atheism and Theism, re "Do we exist in a creation?"

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Re: Do you understand those on the other side?

Post #160

Post by We_Are_VENOM »

Jose Fly wrote: Thu Jun 02, 2022 2:35 pm So the point of discussion for this thread is....how about you? For the "evolutionists", can you relate to the creationists' way of thinking and behaviors? For the creationists, are there behaviors from the other side that baffle you, and you just don't understand? Do you look at folks like me and think to yourselves, "I just cannot relate to his way of thinking?"

Or is it just me? :P
Yeah, I will give you the short version of where I'm coming from.

Great question, btw. :approve:

You have two options..

1. God did it.

2. Nature did it.

Now, long story short; based on everything I know...when I see specified complexity, that is complex physical objections, each with functionality and purpose....these objects are 100% create by intelligent design(er).

So, for an atheist to conclude that, lets say, the human body; the eyes to see, ears to hear, digestive system, circulatory system, reproduction system, nervous system, etc....all of that purpose and functionality...to believe that that was all the result from a random, blind, mindless process.

No, I will NEVER relate to that kind of thinking.

Ever.
Venni Vetti Vecci!!

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