Machines and morality

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Machines and morality

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Given that humans are believed to be mechanisms (albeit of great complexity) on what basis can we say that murder or torture is wrong? Why is destruction of a machine regarded as having no moral component yet destruction of a person is? Surely destroying any mechanism is the same irrepestective of the mechanism.

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #131

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William wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:39 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #123]
I don't see how there can be partial free will myself. For any kind of true will to be meaningful there must be non-determinism present, and again I don't think the idea of partial determinism means anything.
In relation to 'what', is semblance of free will without meaning?
Since a non-deterministic system can choose how to behave, it could choose to behave deterministically, that is something that appears to be deterministic might be an illusion, it could be free will that has chosen to appear deterministic.
Free will is a device. A device cannot choose. Do you mean, the one using their will might choose to use it as a device to view the world as deterministic?
Free will is the postulated capability of a system to act indeterministically by virtue of being free to choose some outcome. So free will and freedom to choose are the same thing. I have free will so I am free to choose to behave in such a way that to an observer all they see is deterministic, predictable behavior. For example I could choose to start counting out loud "one", "two", "three" and so on and since the next number is predictable (it is the previous number + 1) I am (to all intents and purposes) a deterministic system from the point of view of an observer.

So what I was getting at is that the orderly, systematic, law based universe we see, might in fact be a manifestation of God's choosing to make the universe appear deterministic, and the laws of nature are behaviors God has chosen. This is just speculation I admit but it stems from my increasing realization that non-determinism or "free will" might be much more fundamental than we've traditionally regarded it, rather than appearing to emerge from orderliness, orderliness might actually emerge from on-determinism, free will, choice; even at the level of physics.
William wrote: Sat Jun 18, 2022 4:39 pm
Perhaps this is the universe God created, perhaps he created it and he has chosen that it behaves as we see it, apparently governed by laws.
If you used your will to pray for this God to give you something, and circumstances following the prayer unfolded in a way that had you receiving what you had asked for, wouldn't that be evidence of determinism?
I'm going to say no, because what I said above is that it seems to me that it is determinism that needs to be explained and determinism might actually emerge from free will (rather than the other way around as some here speculate). Philosophers have speculated for centuries that "will" is in fact a truly fundamental quality in the universe and science and determinism and so on are all made possible because God's will has willed it.

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #132

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In a deterministic system everything that happens is an inevitable consequence of what happened before, there can be no "decisions" no "choices" the laws are the laws and must be obeyed.
If I had the ability to know everything about this universe, then I would see that this universe is a deterministic system.

Therefore I can conclude that - while the universe is a deterministic system my lack of knowledge about it allows for me to think I have free will...it would appear "self evident" to me that I have free will.

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #133

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William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:27 pm
In a deterministic system everything that happens is an inevitable consequence of what happened before, there can be no "decisions" no "choices" the laws are the laws and must be obeyed.
If I had the ability to know everything about this universe, then I would see that this universe is a deterministic system.

Therefore I can conclude that - while the universe is a deterministic system my lack of knowledge about it allows for me to think I have free will...it would appear "self evident" to me that I have free will.
But consider, to what cause can we attribute determinism? From where did determinism come?

Non-determinism - free will - can choose to act deterministically, so there's a metaphysical argument that non-determinism, though itself uncaused can cause determinism.

The Bible in many many places speaks of God's "will" as the thing that acts, that can act, God can do as he pleases - literally meaning God has free will.

Free will is the "first cause" that comes up when discussing the cosmological argument, the cause that is itself not caused.

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #134

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[Replying to Inquirer in post #131]
So what I was getting at is that the orderly, systematic, law based universe we see, might in fact be a manifestation of God's choosing to make the universe appear deterministic, and the laws of nature are behaviors God has chosen. This is just speculation I admit but it stems from my increasing realization that non-determinism or "free will" might be much more fundamental than we've traditionally regarded it, rather than appearing to emerge from orderliness, orderliness might actually emerge from on-determinism, free will, choice; even at the level of physics.
This speculative idea dovetails with the notion that the universe is a construct of my mind and that everything I have ever experienced, whether forgotten by me - [my existence prior to this one] remembered [this current experience] or to be experience in the next phase [ yet to occur] all are/will be, constructs of my own making.
If you used your will to pray for this God to give you something, and circumstances following the prayer unfolded in a way that had you receiving what you had asked for, wouldn't that be evidence of determinism?
I'm going to say no, because what I said above is that it seems to me that it is determinism that needs to be explained and determinism might actually emerge from free will (rather than the other way around as some here speculate). Philosophers have speculated for centuries that "will" is in fact a truly fundamental quality in the universe and science and determinism and so on are all made possible because God's will has willed it.
If GOD knows everything, how can GOD have free will? What evidence do we have that GOD created this universe from an act of free will?
How do we know that fundamentally, GOD has free will?

Sure, one can speculate that this is the case, yet one can equally speculate that there is fundamentally no such thing as free will.

As pointed out, there has been no scientific examination of the speculative idea of free will. There is no particular shared census of scientific opinion as to whether things are deterministic or mindlessly chaotic and argument by appearance seems to suggest that both are in operation re the universe.

I suspect that the more about everything we get to know, the less we will be able to think of the universe as non-deterministic, and our understanding of free will should change in accord with the knowledge.

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #135

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The Bible in many many places speaks of God's "will" as the thing that acts, that can act, God can do as he pleases - literally meaning God has free will.
The biblical GOD [God/YHWH] is one of position. Just because the bible speaks of a God that acts does not literally mean he does as he pleases or has free will.

What the position means is that he can act in a far more impressive manner than those in lesser position are able to.

To be able to act in a 'far more impressive manner' does not itself provide the evidence that the one acting, is doing so from a fundamental position of free will - of having free will.

One has to operate within the parameters of the system one is operating in.

Remember the biblical story of the flood? We do not need to believe it is a true story or not to understand that the GOD can do as he pleases, even that he is not pleased to have to be doing it.

Therefore, being able to act as one pleases - subject to the set laws of the system one is acting within - does not mean that this is evidence of free will in action.

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #136

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William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:47 pm [Replying to Inquirer in post #131]
So what I was getting at is that the orderly, systematic, law based universe we see, might in fact be a manifestation of God's choosing to make the universe appear deterministic, and the laws of nature are behaviors God has chosen. This is just speculation I admit but it stems from my increasing realization that non-determinism or "free will" might be much more fundamental than we've traditionally regarded it, rather than appearing to emerge from orderliness, orderliness might actually emerge from on-determinism, free will, choice; even at the level of physics.
This speculative idea dovetails with the notion that the universe is a construct of my mind and that everything I have ever experienced, whether forgotten by me - [my existence prior to this one] remembered [this current experience] or to be experience in the next phase [ yet to occur] all are/will be, constructs of my own making.
If you used your will to pray for this God to give you something, and circumstances following the prayer unfolded in a way that had you receiving what you had asked for, wouldn't that be evidence of determinism?
I'm going to say no, because what I said above is that it seems to me that it is determinism that needs to be explained and determinism might actually emerge from free will (rather than the other way around as some here speculate). Philosophers have speculated for centuries that "will" is in fact a truly fundamental quality in the universe and science and determinism and so on are all made possible because God's will has willed it.
If GOD knows everything, how can GOD have free will? What evidence do we have that GOD created this universe from an act of free will?
How do we know that fundamentally, GOD has free will?
By recognizing that the very term "create" implies free choice, one cannot write down rules for creating, it is a spontaneous spark that drives what we do, so by my analysis the very term "create" has no meaning unless there is free will, free choice.
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:47 pm Sure, one can speculate that this is the case, yet one can equally speculate that there is fundamentally no such thing as free will.

As pointed out, there has been no scientific examination of the speculative idea of free will. There is no particular shared census of scientific opinion as to whether things are deterministic or mindlessly chaotic and argument by appearance seems to suggest that both are in operation re the universe.

I suspect that the more about everything we get to know, the less we will be able to think of the universe as non-deterministic, and our understanding of free will should change in accord with the knowledge.
I don't see how science can ever study free will, science cannot explain non-deterministic events by their very definition, how could we hope develop a theory of non-determinism? It would be unfalsifiable, so no; free will is beyond the reach of science. The only concrete example I have of non-determinism is my own realization that I have free will, a self evident truth.

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #137

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William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm
The Bible in many many places speaks of God's "will" as the thing that acts, that can act, God can do as he pleases - literally meaning God has free will.
The biblical GOD [God/YHWH] is one of position. Just because the bible speaks of a God that acts does not literally mean he does as he pleases or has free will.

What the position means is that he can act in a far more impressive manner than those in lesser position are able to.
But no, there can be no "act" without free will. Without free will then God can do nothing other than do what the laws dictate and system that does nothing more than adhere to laws can never be an "I" or a "he". It would not be God doing things it would be the laws that govern God's behavior.
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm To be able to act in a 'far more impressive manner' does not itself provide the evidence that the one acting, is doing so from a fundamental position of free will - of having free will.

One has to operate within the parameters of the system one is operating in.
Unless one is that system.
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm Remember the biblical story of the flood? We do not need to believe it is a true story or not to understand that the GOD can do as he pleases, even that he is not pleased to have to be doing it.

Therefore, being able to act as one pleases - subject to the set laws of the system one is acting within - does not mean that this is evidence of free will in action.
Yes but what is the origin of determinism? if everything is cause and effect then what cause led to determinism existing and what caused that cause? The only escape from circular arguments that lead nowhere is to posit that in the beginning was God, will, free will, a cause that is itself uncaused, everything else is then easily explained with no circularity or contradictions, this is the most rational way to view the universe IMHO.

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #138

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Inquirer wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:28 pm
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm
The Bible in many many places speaks of God's "will" as the thing that acts, that can act, God can do as he pleases - literally meaning God has free will.
The biblical GOD [God/YHWH] is one of position. Just because the bible speaks of a God that acts does not literally mean he does as he pleases or has free will.

What the position means is that he can act in a far more impressive manner than those in lesser position are able to.
But no, there can be no "act" without free will. Without free will then God can do nothing other than do what the laws dictate and system that does nothing more than adhere to laws can never be an "I" or a "he". It would not be God doing things it would be the laws that govern God's behavior.
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm To be able to act in a 'far more impressive manner' does not itself provide the evidence that the one acting, is doing so from a fundamental position of free will - of having free will.

One has to operate within the parameters of the system one is operating in.
Unless one is that system.
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm Remember the biblical story of the flood? We do not need to believe it is a true story or not to understand that the GOD can do as he pleases, even that he is not pleased to have to be doing it.

Therefore, being able to act as one pleases - subject to the set laws of the system one is acting within - does not mean that this is evidence of free will in action.
Yes but what is the origin of determinism? if everything is cause and effect then what cause led to determinism existing and what caused that cause? The only escape from circular arguments that lead nowhere is to posit that in the beginning was God, will, free will, a cause that is itself uncaused, everything else is then easily explained with no circularity or contradictions, this is the most rational way to view the universe IMHO.
Apart from preaching to the choir re the logic...this still does not indicate that the Creator GOD is operating with free will, even it it looks to all and sundry that It is.

Even if the only concrete example I have of non-determinism is my own realization [as a self evident truth] that I have free will, , this has no relevance if I exist within a deterministic universe.

The defining line will come once it has been established that this universe is fundamentally deterministic, even if whatever created it, made it that way - we still cannot say that the act of creation was done automatically rather than in a determined and planned manner.

It gets back to the unanswered question;

"Can a being who knows everything, [omniscient] actually have free will?"

Do you know the answer?

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Re: Machines and morality

Post #139

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Inquirer wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:28 pm
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm
The Bible in many many places speaks of God's "will" as the thing that acts, that can act, God can do as he pleases - literally meaning God has free will.
The biblical GOD [God/YHWH] is one of position. Just because the bible speaks of a God that acts does not literally mean he does as he pleases or has free will.

What the position means is that he can act in a far more impressive manner than those in lesser position are able to.
But no, there can be no "act" without free will.
Sure there can. Do you suppose your heart pumps blood because you will it to? Of course not. Do you suppose your nose smells vinegar because you will it to? Of course not. Do you suppose your hand picks up a set of keys because you will it to? Of course not.

Without free will then God can do nothing other than do what the laws dictate and system that does nothing more than adhere to laws can never be an "I" or a "he".
BINGO!! God can do none of those things without being forced by antecedent causes.

It would not be God doing things it would be the laws that govern God's behavior.
And that's exactly how god operates; by conforming to the antecedent states of affairs that precede all acts ."

William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm To be able to act in a 'far more impressive manner' does not itself provide the evidence that the one acting, is doing so from a fundamental position of free will - of having free will.

One has to operate within the parameters of the system one is operating in.
Unless one is that system.
Errr. Exactly how would that work? How would one be that system?

William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm Remember the biblical story of the flood? We do not need to believe it is a true story or not to understand that the GOD can do as he pleases, even that he is not pleased to have to be doing it.

Therefore, being able to act as one pleases - subject to the set laws of the system one is acting within - does not mean that this is evidence of free will in action.
Yes but what is the origin of determinism?
It's simply how the universe and everything in it works, and from its very inception: A causes B.

if everything is cause and effect then what cause led to determinism existing and what caused that cause?
Well, at present no one knows how the first cause came into being, if there was one, but just because we don't know, and perhaps never will, doesn't mean we can concoct and present any answer as truth simply because it puts a period on the question. And believe me Free Will is certainly not any kind of such a truth.

The only escape from circular arguments that lead nowhere is to posit that in the beginning was God, will, free will, a cause that is itself uncaused, everything else is then easily explained with no circularity or contradictions, this is the most rational way to view the universe IMHO.
Then perhaps it isn't a valid circular argument at all!! Perhaps your "circular argument" is a fool's argument because it assumes to be true something that has never been shown to exist. You are aware, are you not, that unlike determinism, which we see in operation everyday, free will is a concocted operation that exists only in the imagination of needy minds. The need to believe we have free agency wherein we could have done differently if we wished. Thing is, you could not have wished differently because the casual events that brought you to the point of wishing would have had to be different. But they weren't different, so there was no opportunity to anything but what you did. You had to pick your nose at the dinner table because you had no alternative to do otherwise. Choices and choosing are mere illusions.


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Re: Machines and morality

Post #140

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Miles wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:54 pm
Inquirer wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 3:28 pm
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm
The Bible in many many places speaks of God's "will" as the thing that acts, that can act, God can do as he pleases - literally meaning God has free will.
The biblical GOD [God/YHWH] is one of position. Just because the bible speaks of a God that acts does not literally mean he does as he pleases or has free will.

What the position means is that he can act in a far more impressive manner than those in lesser position are able to.
But no, there can be no "act" without free will.
Sure there can. Do you suppose your heart pumps blood because you will it to? Of course not. Do you suppose your nose smells vinegar because you will it to? Of course not. Do you suppose your hand picks up a set of keys because you will it to? Of course not.
The beating of the heart and the awareness of vinegar are not what I regard as acts, actions, they are better referred to as events. But the set of keys, yes my hand pick up the keys precisely because I will it to. The first two are events and have a causal origin, the last one an act of will.
Miles wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:54 pm
Without free will then God can do nothing other than do what the laws dictate and system that does nothing more than adhere to laws can never be an "I" or a "he".
BINGO!! God can do none of those things without being forced by antecedent causes.
Why do you make that claim?
Miles wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:54 pm
It would not be God doing things it would be the laws that govern God's behavior.
And that's exactly how god operates; by conforming to the antecedent states of affairs that precede all acts ."
That's not God then.
Miles wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:54 pm
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm To be able to act in a 'far more impressive manner' does not itself provide the evidence that the one acting, is doing so from a fundamental position of free will - of having free will.

One has to operate within the parameters of the system one is operating in.
Unless one is that system.
Errr. Exactly how would that work? How would one be that system?
God is the universe, the creation is a manifestation of God's will and power, it exists because God wants it to exist.
Miles wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:54 pm
William wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 2:59 pm Remember the biblical story of the flood? We do not need to believe it is a true story or not to understand that the GOD can do as he pleases, even that he is not pleased to have to be doing it.

Therefore, being able to act as one pleases - subject to the set laws of the system one is acting within - does not mean that this is evidence of free will in action.
Yes but what is the origin of determinism?
It's simply how the universe and everything in it works, and from its very inception: A causes B.
So what caused the first event?
Miles wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:54 pm
if everything is cause and effect then what cause led to determinism existing and what caused that cause?
Well, at present no one knows how the first cause came into being, if there was one, but just because we don't know, and perhaps never will, doesn't mean we can concoct and present any answer as truth simply because it puts a period on the question. And believe me Free Will is certainly not any kind of such a truth.
There cannot be a first cause if the universe is deterministic, every event must be preceded by some other, so if you admit to a chronological first uncaused cause you are admitting that the universe is not deterministic.
Miles wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:54 pm
The only escape from circular arguments that lead nowhere is to posit that in the beginning was God, will, free will, a cause that is itself uncaused, everything else is then easily explained with no circularity or contradictions, this is the most rational way to view the universe IMHO.
Then perhaps it isn't a valid circular argument at all!! Perhaps your "circular argument" is a fool's argument because it assumes to be true something that has never been shown to exist. You are aware, are you not, that unlike determinism, which we see in operation everyday, free will is a concocted operation that exists only in the imagination of needy minds.
I have free will, it is a self evidently true statement. I have no need to prove the truth of the claim any more than I have a need to prove the claim "I exist".
Miles wrote: Sun Jun 19, 2022 4:54 pm The need to believe we have free agency wherein we could have done differently if we wished. Thing is, you could not have wished differently because the casual events that brought you to the point of wishing would have had to be different. But they weren't different, so there was no opportunity to anything but what you did. You had to pick your nose at the dinner table because you had no alternative to do otherwise. Choices and choosing are mere illusions.

.
Yes that's the typical claim of those who believe in determinism. The fact remains the very existence of determinism must then by your reasoning have a cause and it cannot have caused itself to exist therefore we have a contradiction. This is a proof by contradiction that free will - non-determinism - must be real.

Like it or not, admitting free will (truly non-deterministic will) is the more rational and coherent of the two options, denying free will leads to a straitjacket.

Free will can account for determinism but determinism can never account for free will, it is obvious that free will is real, more real than anything else we strive to comprehend. You deny free will because you believe in determinism and determinism cannot be used to explain something non-deterministic. All you need to do is believe in free will, non-determinism and everything begins to fall into place with no contradictions or circularity, its a very rational position.

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