Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

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Diogenes
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Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #1

Post by Diogenes »

A friend recently wrote:
I watched Ketanji Brown Jackson being sworn in today.
The Constitution prescribes the text of the oath for the President taking office:
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.
_ Article II, Section 1, Clause 8, U.S. Constitution

The Constitution does not list the exact wording for the oath a new Supreme Court Justice takes, so Congress decided a new Justice should pronounce similar words, closing with, "... so help me God."

The Constitution is clear, “there shall be no religious test” for those holding office in the United States. Yet, “… so help me God” was added to the oath which is administered while the new President or Justice holds their hand on the Bible (or two Bibles).
I’m wondering what would happen (and why it hasn’t) if a principled President or Supreme Court Justice refused to say “so help me God” or refused to put their hand on the Bible.
Note: Theodore Roosevelt and John Adams did not put their hands on a Bible when sworn.
I wonder whether there are Christians here who resist the current movement among evangelicals to resist the combining of religion and government. For debate:
Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'*

___________
Yes, I am aware 'separation of church and state' is not the phrase used in the Constitution, despite Jefferson referencing the phrase. So for those who reflexively think that actually represents an argument... it does not. The government being foreclosed from 'establishing a religion' amounts to the same thing.
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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #11

Post by Athetotheist »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 2:30 am
Athetotheist wrote: Sun Jul 03, 2022 9:38 pm Hmm.....maybe we could use 1 Timothy 6:10 to outlaw corporate greed......establish a Separation of Wall Street and State.....
Seems you're being sarcastic. But why limit religious-based laws to Christianity? I think all of the major religions have good things to offer and can potentially be used to make law or give us some ideas, at least. Let's put everything good on the table!
I was certainly not limiting such suggestions to Christianity. For example, Eastern philosophy has great wisdom to teach.

Neither was I being in any way sarcastic. In fact, Acts 4:32-35 makes an impressive blueprint for a strong social safety net through a universal mandate for the downward redistribution of wealth.

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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #12

Post by bjs1 »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

I strongly support separation of church and state. That said, the specific issue brought up in this thread – ending an oath with “so help me God” – does not appear to be an issue for separation of church and state. In the USA the state does not require those taking an oath of office for the SCOTUS to say “so help me God” or to place his or her hand on a Bible. The state also does not prohibit such actions. It remains an individual’s choice. Since Brown claims to be a Christian, it is little surprise that she chose to maintain such traditions.

Separation of church and state means that the state neither support nor opposes any specific religion. In this case, the state appears to be acting appropriately according to that doctrine.
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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #13

Post by 2ndRateMind »

Diogenes wrote: Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:51 am For debate:
Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'*
I would say so. American Christianity seems to be evangelism led, and presuming by 'Church' you mean Christianity, and therefore evangelical, I think that would be a 'bad idea'. My suspicion around evangelicals arises from a world in which, according to Oxfam, one person every 48 seconds dies from hunger and hunger related disease, and fully one third of the world's population subsist on less than $2 per day, I think there are more important matters to address than the constitutional status of the faith.

Yet evangelicals seem to think you can be both rich and Christian. To be honest, I can't see many of them getting past St Peter to access heaven.

Best wishes, 2RM.
Last edited by 2ndRateMind on Fri Jul 08, 2022 2:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #14

Post by AgnosticBoy »

bjs1 wrote: Wed Jul 06, 2022 11:44 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]
Separation of church and state means that the state neither support nor opposes any specific religion. In this case, the state appears to be acting appropriately according to that doctrine.
I was also thinking about it in terms of the US not being able to make any laws that have to do with religion or that is based on it. If that's correct, then I would be against separation of church and state in that case because some laws on prohibiting murder and adultery, stem from religion. In this case, the government is not trying to establish a national religious standard, but rather it's just supporting individual religious views that serve a common good. I think religion should be mixed with government in that sense.

Also, refer to my post #6 where I also emphasize this point.
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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #15

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

It's a weird concept for sure. Separating beliefs and ideology from the state would mean there was no state. I think like John Lennon it is a dream and one we would be foolish to think was possible.
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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #16

Post by Diogenes »

Wootah wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:44 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

It's a weird concept for sure. Separating beliefs and ideology from the state would mean there was no state. I think like John Lennon it is a dream and one we would be foolish to think was possible.
Your conclusion suggests the founding fathers, the authors of the Constitution of the United states were foolish to include the establishment clause in the 1st Amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;....
__ 1st Amendment, U. S. Constitution
In any event, it was not ideology in general referred to, but religion in particular.

The phrase 'wall of separation' comes from Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists and represents a logical conclusion drawn from the 1st Amendment.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should ʺmake no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,ʺ thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.
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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #17

Post by Purple Knight »

AgnosticBoy wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 1:55 pm Good points. Perhaps some people associate religion with ignorance (esp. fundamentalism). So when they think about making religion into law, their mind automatically jumps to the NEGATIVES of religion and only that. A more balanced look would acknowledge the wrongs of religion along with the positives or good aspects. A more balanced view would also reveal that secularism is not guaranteed to be right. We should be open to accepting ideas from ANY system just as long as it provides a common good (if backed by logic and evidence then that's even more reason to accept it!). If it serves a common good, then we should be open to making it public policy.
It might also be reasonable to accept that not being open to ideas we find hateful is, in itself, a good. This is the only reason we're not nudist, because there is no good reason to force clothes on people. But we still do it because letting naked people run around would make 99.999% of the people in the society unhappy; having deflated breasts out dragging on the ground and hairy danglers swaying in the breeze would distress them horribly.

And in the end it might be okay to say, logic and evidence stop at some point because my feelings. Just as we wouldn't approve of some torture device that when attached to everyone, produced some great material gain, we shouldn't necessarily discard the feelings of people as part of the equation, because if they are tortured, then we have not achieved any common good.

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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #18

Post by AgnosticBoy »

Wootah wrote: Thu Jul 07, 2022 7:44 pm [Replying to Diogenes in post #1]

It's a weird concept for sure. Separating beliefs and ideology from the state would mean there was no state. I think like John Lennon it is a dream and one we would be foolish to think was possible.
Yeah, it's kind of like trying to keep morality and law distinct or separate. It can't be done because the two intersect at some point, for instance, " do not murder". Both deal with human behavior.
Purple Knight wrote: Fri Jul 08, 2022 6:07 pm It might also be reasonable to accept that not being open to ideas we find hateful is, in itself, a good. This is the only reason we're not nudist, because there is no good reason to force clothes on people. But we still do it because letting naked people run around would make 99.999% of the people in the society unhappy; having deflated breasts out dragging on the ground and hairy danglers swaying in the breeze would distress them horribly.
That's the best argument against nudism I've come across. :) (jokingly, of course!)
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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #19

Post by Athetotheist »

[Replying to AgnosticBoy in post #14
I was also thinking about it in terms of the US not being able to make any laws that have to do with religion or that is based on it. If that's correct, then I would be against separation of church and state in that case because some laws on prohibiting murder and adultery, stem from religion.
Are you saying that atheists are wrong when they say that it's possible to be moral without religion?

Laws against adultery may be sectarian, but there's no secular law against it where I live.

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Re: Is it bad for America to remove 'Separation of Church and State?'

Post #20

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to Athetotheist in post #19]

I would make that claim. The Bible is clear that the sun shines on the righteousness and the wicked. In this context that would mean we all have morality.

If you like, please go ahead and make a thread on the basis of morality without God. Make my day.
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